I am now not a fan of Blackfire.

C

Corey Bit Spank

Active member
It's VERY smeary/hazey. The paint looked 10x better than before I used it.



Let me tell you what I did:



Wash

Clay Bar (clay magic)

DACP with Yellow pad with PC

Another pass of DACP with the white pad

BF Polish with the white pad.

BF sealant with the black pad.



The haze is horrible. It's nor clear nor very reflective. It was very humid out, but it's not humid anymore, and it will not come off the paint. It didn't do this in the winter when it was dry and cold. Then again, I didn't spend a whole day using DACP to get the swirls out--so it probably looked ok then. I think I need to get some Final Inspection to get it off.



I guess it's pretty slick, and the parts it didn't haze look ok. They're still not great. Oh well. There are no more swirls though. :)



Maybe I'll try the free Pinnacle LS from autogeek.com. Anybody else have this problem with BF II?
 
Just did my truck with BF last weekend and didn't have any problems with hazing.



It turned out great and as smooth as glass.



Washed

PC'd the polish

MF'd off

PC'd protectant

MF's off



Looks great! Can send you pics if you want!
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
Anybody else have this problem with BF II?
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Sorry, I'm gonna be blunt about this....



I had the same problem as you. I applied the product as thin as humanly possible via both PC and hand and the stuff is very smeary. This is very unfortunate too because like you said, on the areas where it DIDN'T smear, it looked pretty nice.



The product even feels greasy when being applied and spread on the car. I applied it during during the late winter when temps were around 65-70 here in LA, so granted it was not the ideal temp, but NO product should do this just because it's not hot outside. I even tried letting it dry overnight and it didn't buff any easier.



Per CMA's suggestions, I tried spritzing the smeary areas with water and QD and that didn't do anything. I also tried 're-applying' product to see if that would work (also, per CMA's suggestion) and it didn't do squat.



I tried a few other 'desperate measures' like diluting the product with water first (hey, it's an oil in water solvent base, right?). Nothing worked. BTW, how on earth is a product supposed to dry if there is no solvent to be evaporated?? :nixweiss



The ONLY thing that finally worked for me was applying P21S right on top of the smears.



I'm sorry, but I give BFII a big :down :mad: :down :mad:
 
I've had the same smearing problems the couple of times I've tried BFII . . . not easily seen on the WRX's very bright silver, but still there. Although it may not be much consolation, the smearing doesn't seem to persist after the first wash (in my limited experience, anyway). Even so, my bottle of BF has sat on the shelf since I initially tried it. Smearing is one of my major detailing "peeves", and there are too many other products that look as good immediately after removal without fighting the excess oils, or waiting a day or two and washing to really get the car looking good.



Tort
 
I took pictures of the one side without (most) of the smears. Of course it's with a cheap disposable camera but i will have pictures within a few weeks of the car.



At least I know the smearing will eventually go away. I should have just used Liquid Souveran from the get-go because it's still warm out and I don't mind waxing every couple of weeks. I'm just looking for something durable and not so unforgiving to apply/take off. Oh well. I tried.



So, poorboys EX, Zaino, or Klasse? (I've heard platinum isn't all that wonderful with smearing as well).
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
So, poorboys EX, Zaino, or Klasse? (I've heard platinum isn't all that wonderful with smearing as well).
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K, Z, PB EX, PB PWC or Meg's #20 will out last BFII. What are you trying to say about Platinum? Are you trying to say that PUPP is smeary, if so I have never had that problem with either version.





Eric
 
I was one of the original BFII-smearers. It DOES go away after the first wash, but so does a LITTLE of the BF shine. But I'd give it a wash before deciding the stuff's no good. And you can always use it on wheels, etc. BFII's been on my S8 for quite a while (last coat was before Thanksgiving) and the car still looks great. BUT it is different look compared to Klasse, or waxes. "Carnauba-like", but VERY different from our other silver Audi that has (real) wax on it.



I just used PUPP for the first time. Left the garage's A/C off and left the floor a little wet to make for challenging conditions (oh, the sacrifices I make :p ) The temp was in the high 80's and the humidity was around 70%. Used it on an Audi A6, over top of Autoglym's Super Resin Polish. NO problem bonding to the SRP, NO smearing, NO problems at all. Nice look, very reflective yet fairly deep (this is on silver). Quite slick, but not THE SLICKEST I've ever felt. I applied it (VERY thin, really worked it in until almost gone) with a Cyclo using finishing pads, removed it by giving a quick wipe by hand with a YoSteve MF and following up with the Cyclo using TOL's suede-style MF bonnets. No need for QD, etc. It worked fine on the black trim, but didn't give quite the same look on it as BFII (the BF's oils make the black a little "richer" looking than the PUPP did, at least until you wash it). On the paint, the PUPP generally looks about the same as BFII. Not sure I could tell the difference, especially after the BF was washed once.
 
edschwab1 said:
K, Z, PB EX, PB PWC or Meg's #20 will out last BFII.
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I'm not sure why everyone claims BF doesn't last long. Maybe because the original was sheety and not slick and it got a reputation of only lasting a week or two? So maybe figure the new stuff can't improve too much on it?



I have mentioned a few times how all the glass on my car still beads like crazy in rain, and when I hose the car down. I have applied a subsequent coat of BF to my front windshield, but not to any of the other glass. The front does bead a bit tighter than the other glass, but all of the glass still has very obvious beading from the BF. I thought it was a few months ago that I did this, but in checking my journal, I applied a second coat to the car in the end of March, so the first coat would have been sometime earlier. So it has been on there for at least 5 full months. So I would say the durability of Blackfire is pretty good, and certainly as good as most autopians would ever need.



Corey, you say the finish looks 10x better, but you are now "not a fan" of it? I know it could be better if it didn't smear, but really, this is hardly a terrible shortcoming. I guess I'm a bit surprised by the outrage at possibly having to wash your car a second time at some point (not even the same day if you don't want) after applying it.



I guess I'm surprised that on the same board where people are like "I just spend 18 hours applying Zaino :)", and where some people wash their car 3 times just in prep for applying something, that some people are like "I had to wash my car a second time for it to look 10x better :grrr :eek:". I mean, if you don't like BF that's ok. But I just find it surprising the critizism it gets for smearing. Like it is some unbelievable shortcoming for a product in this day and age.



I've had to wash to remove Klasse SG haze before, I'm going to have to do some things bordering on absurdity to test out Zaino, and sometimes I have to do a second wash to completely finish my Blackfire application. But all of these products are very durable and very attractive, so it's worth it to me. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be worth it to you. And definitely if you've tried it and don't like it, then that's all there is to it. I can certainly understand that people won't have the same feelings about it that I do.



It just seems to me when people point out a shortcoming in something like Zaino or Klasse, it is presented more like "here is this shortcoming, but here's how you overcome it". With Blackfire, it tends to be "here is this shortcoming, but here's other stuff you can use after you pitch that BF bottle".



That's just the general impression I get, not from any particular people, but more the impression of whole threads on BF. Anyway, maybe I should just be glad and try to buy the bottles from all of you smearers on the cheap... ;) :wavey
 
I too wonder whay BF is considered less-than-durable. I don't drive the S8 that much, but after TEN MONTHS since the last coat I just keep putting off redoing it because it still looks so good and it's still beading (NOT sheeting). That's with spot-claying every wash. I DO use the BF QD after some washes, but still...this stuff lasts a pretty long time for me.



Yeah, I'm gonna switch to PUPP, but IMO, BF is NOT a bad product by any means.
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
It's VERY smeary/hazey. The paint looked 10x better than
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I mean, after I used DACP, and then BF polish, the car looked MUCH better than before the Blackfire sealant. This is probably due to the smearing, whereas my friend said "your car is so shiney!" and then she, a non-autopian, noticed the smearing. :(



I take back my statements on PUPP (I read somewhere that it is smeary, but maybe that's not true--I'll have to try it).



I used it before in December, and I can say it is very durable. A carnauba user switching to Blackfire would have no complaints about its durability. However, people complained about the first BF not being "slick enough." Now my paint feels like it was rubbed with vaseline. Dust loves to stick to it.



The good:

Shine

Slickness

durability

water beading :eek:



The bad:

smearing/hazing

dust attraction



I'll use the rest of my product up because it was expensive and try other products. As for the "18 hours with zaino" comment that was made, I took tuesday took 2 days (one to DACP and the other for the BF products). As one person said and from MY personal experience, the initial first wash after blackfire does diminish some of the shine and slickness (which may not be a bad thing with all that dust). I'm going to wash it today. I'll let everybody know how the smears hold up to a good wash.



Maybe I am being TOO critical of the product, or I'm just used to regular carnaubas still. I guess you have to take the good with the bad. People definitely notice my common Stratus now. I don't know if that's a good thing though. :)



Aurora, I understand you really like Blackfire, and I do not blame you. If one wash after will reduce the smearing, I'll be a fan too. Maybe I'm too close to the mural to see how good the end result really is. Let me know how Zaino works out in comparison :)



edit: Aurora, if you have any other tips with Blackfire let me know. Gosh knows there are tricks of the trade when using Klasse SG and Zaino. Maybe there just isn't enough users to give good advice for the product? :)
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
Aurora, I understand you really like Blackfire, and I do not blame you. If one wash after will reduce the smearing, I'll be a fan too. Maybe I'm too close to the mural to see how good the end result really is. Let me know how Zaino works out in comparison :)



edit: Aurora, if you have any other tips with Blackfire let me know. Gosh knows there are tricks of the trade when using Klasse SG and Zaino. Maybe there just isn't enough users to give good advice for the product? :)
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In regards to the looking good before the wash, but losing some look after, I've never really noticed that. I guess where it is hazy it is sort of extra deep, but that's mainly because it's still oily/hazy. So it isn't too surprising that removing the haze will remove some of that look. But to me the car looks awesome even after 10 washes.



My main tip is thin... I am not kidding that I use about a drop per panel (two drops on the roof and maybe 2 1/2 on the hood). I've probably applied 10-15 coats of Blackfire from the bottle and it looks brand new. Those little ridges on the side of the bottle, the top of them is about how low the product is. And I have a pretty big car. In reality, my car is 8" longer than a TrailBlazer, almost a foot longer than a 4Runner, and also probably wider than either. It's not small.



I apply one drop to one half of the roof, maybe a drop and then wipe a little more off the bottle just to prime the pad. Then I smear the drop in like a 6" line, and wipe the little bit that is on my finger onto the paint in front of the sunroof, the top of the door frame, and the A and C pillars. Then I run the PC over the 6" smear and work it around that half of the roof to include the tops of the doors and the A and C pillars. That's all it takes. In most parts, you can't even see the product. Then that's basically what I do for the rest of the car. I spread the drop out a bit with my finger on whichever panel just to make it easier to spread it evenly, and I'll sort of wipe a few smaller lines from the same drop in the further areas of the panel. If I need a tad more, I won't use a full extra drop, but will just tip the bottle on my finger a tad.



I really can't see product on about 3/4 of the car (though I don't bust out a spotlight and search for hazing). But if you feel it, it's slick. After having done it a few times you'll get more confident that product is actually there. You can tell when you buff it, and even just when you manually move the PC pad over it. It's slicker than the areas you haven't done. Plus, the whole car will look awesome and bead like crazy so I'm sure it's coated. Usually if there is a hazing problem, it will be only on the part of the panel that you can see haze on. If I can't get it off, I'll give it another hour or so, then hit it with the BF QD (though any should work). Usually if I work the QD over a larger area than the hazing, it's pretty easy to remove. So, if the whole panel is hazed, I'd be pretty screwed. If it just won't come off, then I just don't give it any more thought and wait for a wash. Usually it isn't super hazy or anything, only in the right light and such. So I don't really mind waiting until the next weekend's wash for it to get corrected. I always wash the car between coats, haze or not. And I really can't imagine how more product would help the haze, though I've seen the CMA stuff that said that.



I actually have started using this application technique with SG as well. On most of the car I couldn't even see the haze. I used less SG (and man, I hardly used any before) and had fewer hazing problems. They few hazed areas were easily corrected with just distilled water. I buffed the whole car of SG with one 16x16" MF with no problems. I find the PC helps a lot as I can spread the small amount of product onto a larger area faster. With BF it isn't as big a deal as it stays "wet" for a long time. But SG doesn't, so it's crucial to spread it fast. I'll probably start spritzing distilled water with the SG on application too in order to buy a little time.



At this rate, I honestly think I can easily get 50+ coats out of a 16 oz. bottle of BF. And I really don't think the protectant coat is any thinner or weaker. There's just less to buff.



As a last resort, though, you can always wash the car. I don't think anyone has ever had hazing still after washing. I know it sort of sucks, but if you figure it lasts 4 months or more, then that's only like one week out of 16+ that it doesn't look so great. And really, it still probably looks great, just not as great as it will.



I can understand if you don't find it worth the effort, or it just isn't the look you want, or whatever. We all have different characteristics we really want in a product, and others that we are willing to sacrifice on because they aren't as important. But since you already own it, give it some time before you throw in the towel. Wash the car, and live with the current coat for a few weeks. I bet there will be a few times you'll see the car in the right light, catch that glow, and be like "damn that car looks good". Plus, the beading is just crazy.
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
As for the "18 hours with zaino" comment that was made, I took tuesday took 2 days (one to DACP and the other for the BF products).
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Hey Corey, I am guessing maybe most of that time was the DACP'ing? If you had a lot of swirls, that would take time with any system. I hope the BF polish and BF protectant didn't take too long. I usually don't even bother with the BF polish anymore, just some SFP and then the protectant. The polish looks good at first, but after a few days/weeks it doesn't seem like it makes a difference (at least to me). The polish is nice, but I wasn't really blown away by it. Anyway, the polish and protectant shouldn't really take too much time, unless you count the time waiting for it to set. The protectant spreads very easily due to the oily consistency. Did you really spend more time on the BF part than you would if you were using something else? Maybe you were doing a weird application, or making it harder than it needed to be? Just wondering/trying to help, not criticize. :)
 
No, it was hot out so I kept taking a break. If it was cooler I probably could have got it all done in a day. DACP takes awhile but it's an awesome product. Maybe I am doing something wrong. I think I may have applied it too thick (and with Blackfire it seems that is a large problem), I'll apply it again in a week and see if I get any better results. Can I just put another layer on top after a week?
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
Can I just put another layer on top after a week?
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Oh yeah, definitely. But make sure you've gotten rid of all the hazing. You don't want to compound the problem with another layer. If it were me, I'd probably wait after the first wash just so you can get a good look at the car, ensure you don't notice some haze still left somewhere, get a feel for how the first layer acts/looks/etc. But you don't need to do that if you don't want.



I just thought you might like it more/enjoy putting the second coat on more if you have some time to appreciate the first one and decide you really do like the look. That way you'll be excited about putting on another coat and getting a bit more glow/depth/shine/whatever you decide you like about it (if you decide you like it). It sucks using a product when you are frustrated with it. I'm sure the first coat is protecting quite well, so there's no urgency there. :wavey
 
I use BFII on my wife's Black Mustang. The first time I used it, it smeared probably because I used too much product. I washed it and afterwards, it looked very nice.



The second time I used it, I applied it sparingly and let it sit for four hours. No problems with smearing the second time around. My wife really likes BFII....Andrew
 
Well I washed it today and yes, the smearing and streaking is hardly there (like Aurora said, it's a little darker, but hey, they good comes with the bad). It definitely looks much better after a wash, even if it loses its slickness (which really isn't a problem, seeing my paint is so smooth). Really nice, I'm a born again Blackfire fan. On Tuesday I'll apply another coat very thin. :)
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
Really nice, I'm a born again Blackfire fan. On Tuesday I'll apply another coat very thin. :)
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I'm glad the washing worked out for you. I'd like to hear your longer-term impressions of it to see if you still like it. And let us know how the second coat goes.



I usually QD after each wash just to make sure there are no water spots. I use Final Detail on the Blackfire, and it makes the car super-slick again. It takes me like 2 hours to wash my car, so the extra 20 minutes to quickly QD it isn't so bad. The Blackfire QD is ok, but I doubt I'd buy more of it (I sort of doubt I'll use what I have up too). It smells nice but doesn't seem to make much of an appearance difference that I can see, nor does it add much slickness that I can feel.
 
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