Gonna buy new Sled. Need opinions on naturally-aspirated engines vs turbos

OpenRoad

OpenRoad

New member
I have been perusing 2017 coupes for a future purchase, but am undecided about choosing a naturally-aspirated V-6 or V-8, OR "going turbo" ...obviously what all "Euro Companies" want ALL of us to do? I also detest the eco start-stop function that comes onboard with all EU cars now.

I have never thought turbos were worth a Tinker`s Dam, as they have never had a long life (shot at 70K?). And...then, there`s the infamous "Turbo Lag"....Yucck. Most American Muscle Cars have, so far, continued with "real engines" (as well as Japanese-made Lexus), but many I`ve driven aren`t too savvy `bout handling sharp corners. (No offense, meant, guys)

I/we want a true "fun driving experience", as well as engine longevity (Don`t we all?!). My personal ride, does not do commuting, daily slogging off to the grocery store, or routinely bombing down a straight/level interstate (we have 2 other vehicles for those mundane things).

We truly DO have Open Roads in NM, and often mannny miles in between scenic destinations. Many curvy/climbing/fun roads between.

No turbo lag please?! My CTS-V has NONE!! Drinks a LOT of gas though (Don`t put `Pedal to da Metal` ?).

Thanks, for opinions....?
 
Direct Injection is a great improvement that allows higher compression = more power, and improved mileage..

Turbochargers are a really cost effective way to have power when you need it and not used when you don`t need it..

My 1984 Grand National had a turbocharger sized for the 3.8L V6 engine`s power and torque curve and it never had turbo lag.. I sold it at 93k and the thing was perfect, no problems with the turbo...
I have to think that 32 years hence, the technology has improved a huge amount..

Will they last a long time ? Mine did because I changed the oil more frequently and did not cheap out on getting the best protection oil available..

Formula-1 cars have been using Turbos for years now and they rev their 1.6L V6 engines up to 18,000 rpm, which means the turbos spin even much higher, and they never have failures..

I drive through CA, AZ, and NM on the way to Texas regularly... Lots of open space on I-10 through your state... I get through it very quickly... :)

Want to attend the Albuquerque Hot Air Balloon Festival at daybreak sometime... My sister and her husband used to go and they loved it.. " Krispy Kreme Morning Glow" on Saturday ! Yeah, I could do that ! :)

Just read the posts below -- Glad we have a few BMW fans - I have BMW CCA Membership NBR 194648 since the year 2000..:)

For sheer JOY in a Naturally Aspirated engine, the 2002 Z3-M Coupe I bought new was absolutely incredible !

That S54 3.2Liter straight 6 engine with the beautiful 6 individual throttle bodies was very, very, fast and probably had the most beautiful SOUND of any engine around for years...
In that little 2 seater Rocket, it made 333hp but it ran and felt like so much more...
That engine won Engine of the Year in 2001..
That car could easily run the speedometer all the way past 170mph and still had more to go.. :)
And at that speed, stable, very stable.. :)
With those beautiful BMW Sport Seats, I would drive easily over 1,200 miles per stint, and not even be tired, sore, etc...
This was the same engine that the M3 BMW had those years but in that smaller Rocket, yeah, now that car - pure bliss on the highway...
Dan F
 
OpenRoad said:
I have been perusing 2017 coupes for a future purchase, but am undecided about choosing a naturally-aspirated V-6 or V-8, OR "going turbo" ...obviously what all "Euro Companies" want ALL of us to do? I also detest the eco start-stop function that comes onboard with all EU cars now.

I have never thought turbos were worth a Tinker`s Dam, as they have never had a long life (shot at 70K?). And...then, there`s the infamous "Turbo Lag"....Yucck. Most American Muscle Cars have, so far, continued with "real engines" (as well as Japanese-made Lexus), but many I`ve driven aren`t too savvy `bout handling sharp corners. (No offense, meant, guys)

I/we want a true "fun driving experience", as well as engine longevity (Don`t we all?!). My personal ride, does not do commuting, daily slogging off to the grocery store, or routinely bombing down a straight/level interstate (we have 2 other vehicles for those mundane things).

We truly DO have Open Roads in NM, and often mannny miles in between scenic destinations. Many curvy/climbing/fun roads between.

No turbo lag please?! My CTS-V has NONE!! Drinks a LOT of gas though (Don`t put `Pedal to da Metal` ?).

Thanks, for opinions....?
Click to expand...


NA vs Turbo, the great discussion begins. There are some truly wonderful turbo motors out there, I`ve had the chance to drive a lot of them. In the majority of modern cars, turbo lag has been almost negated, but with every engine there is at least a 500rpm delay until the turbo starts making boost off idle, but when in boost, some sing. BMW, Ford, VW/Audi, and AMG Merc`s have some truly wonderful turbo engines, but when it comes to throttle response only a few turbo motors come close to an NA, it`s just physics.

My experienced (Enjoyed) Turbo Motor`s:

VW/Audi 2.0T- in their smaller cars like Golf`s and A3`s
BMW 3.0T N54/N55- hands down the most enjoyable turbo motors I have driven, the older N54 is more responsive down low.
AMG M157- This engine is a beast, quick spooling and boost can kick hard.
BMW N63B44TU- Along with the N54/N55, this engine is so enjoyable and linear, even in the ship of a 750Li.
BMW N20- Another very enjoyable and linear engine, IME the most linear 2.0T on the market, that I have driven. I`ve driven Merc`s 2.5T in their more basic cars, they are awful. Ford`s Ecoboost 2.0T in nice, but Audi/VW`s 2.0T is more refined. And the BMW motor is at the top.
Ford 3.5l Ecoboost- For this purpose in an F150 of Expedition, it is a gem, quicker response than anticipated, and just gobs of torque. It also makes lovely noises. I have yet to drive the second gen motor.
Ford 2.0T Ecoboost, IMHO, it is a good engine, but the BMW and VW/Audi engines are just a bit more refined.
Audi 4.0T- This is a good engine, just below BMW`s N63B44TU
Cummins 6.7TD- I love me a diesel, period.
BMW N57`s- another really nice diesel engine
VW/Audi Diesel Gate Motors- If Diesel Gate didn`t exist, I wouldn`t hesitate to own one of these motors.

I`ve driven a lot cars from the likes of GM, Audi/VW, BMW, Ford, Merc, Hyundai, FCA, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus, Jag/Land Rover, Porsche (a couple), RAM, and anymore that I can`t think of. For me, the BMW engine`s always create the most enjoyable driving experience for displacements under 5Liters and in select categories. I am a huge BMW fanboy, love the way they drive, but when I step outside of myself and look at these vehicles/engines objectively, the BMW engines have always given me the most driving enjoyment because of their power band. Yes do they cost to maintain, yup, but every car has their nuance, and if one is to educate themselves with their service intervals, one will see that their `problems` can be avoided by following the service protocols, and of course improving upon them is as simple as turning to the aftermarket (I like to tinker with my cars, but only go reputable)

If I were given $35k to spend on a sports coupe, it would be on an older e46 3-series and an LS swap for it; I`m not a huge fan of modern cars, they have all lost aspects of personality. As far as your CTS-V is concerned, it is only turbocharged if it is highly modified, they come factory with positive displacement superchargers, witch mirror an engines characteristics, but just add more power and torque, everywhere, basically. What you really need to do is just go out and drive the cars for yourself. Everyone likes something different.
 
My pal let me drive his F150 with a turbo on it, the eco is a turbo right? , Anyways, its a rocket.
 
Sounds like your a 5 litter Mustang GT guy. or perhaps a Porsche GT3 if you feel like getting in that deep.

Endless acceleration, can handle most curves, and fun to drive.
 
Wow, OP. What century are you living in? Modern turbos, especially VTGs have about ZERO lag. I currently own a 2016 BMW X6 with a turbo V8, before that a 2015 911 Turbo, before that a VW Touareg turbo diesel, before that a VW Jetta 2.0 turbo. I even had a 2013 Porsche Boxster S thrown in for some NA reference.

No lag.

I got 93k miles of brutal city driving out of my 2.0T and it was still going strong with routine maintenance. It sounds like you have some very OLD information about how OLD turbos worked in OLDer cars. Seriously, dude. Go drive a modern turbo car before you judge. Also, the automatic start/stop function can be disabled in any car at the press of a button. Both my Porsche and BMW default to "off" every time I start the car so it basically isn`t even there. You are complaining about problems that don`t even exist.

- Patrick
 
Pictures speak louder than words..............

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IME turbos can last a long, long time. My wife`s put six-digit mileage on turbos without any issues/maintenance headaches at all, and some of those were far more primitive systems than they have today. It`s like transmission synchros and even clutches, treat `em right and they won`t do you wrong (she`s never needed either of those despite sky-high miles either).
 
What I`d focus on his how you like the car`s, uhm..."feel" in the sense of response to Driver Inputs. Do the brakes/steering/accelerator do what you want the way you want them or not. With the new-model Audi loaners we get, even oughta-be-identical vehicles can be utterly different.

Today`s turbos don`t have much lag, but *MANY* DBW systems do. It`s another area where individual (identical) vehicles will behave differently, so make sure you get a good one.

And just FWIW, I wouldn`t *have* one if it were given to me...too much "stuff" between my inputs and the vehicle`s response and the response to the brakes/accelerator are *never* linear. Seriously, nothing convinces me to keep our current vehicles like driving something newer...loaners, rentals, pals` new toys, I simply detest `em all for one reason or another no matter how well they perform.
 
Most modern DI engines with Turbos (dual, or single) don`t have much noticeable turbo-lag to speak of; the turbo kicks in at very low RPM`s. For the most part, turbo-lag is a thing of the past, on enthusiast cars.

Given your situation, that you`re at altitude there in NM - a turbo car seems to be the most sensible. Forced air at a higher elevation will typically work better than more cylinders, or higher displacement...hence, a turbo charged engine might do you best. For me, the thinner air would immediately put me into the Turbo-Only category....JMHO.
However, if you`re more at sea level, or on flat roads - a NA engine may be more your speed, considering you`ve mentioned some disdain for Turbos, inherently.

A fun driving experience, you say? Sounds like a short wheelbase and a Germanic vehicle to me.

My $0.02
 
Open Road:
Since you`ve mentioned that you own a very thirsty Cadillac CTS-V, I think you will be somewhat "disappointed" by "other" naturally-aspirated performance vehicles, including the Corvette. NOTHING will come close to ride you have, unless you get into BIG dollar sports cars, including the Porsche 911.

I would take Stokdgs` advice and seek out a well-maintained used BMW Z-3 M. They will be hard to find, expensive to buy and maintain, BUT smiles-per-mile and fun-to-drive factor have NO comparison to many other performance cars, including (much) higher-priced sports cars, which seems to diminish when you factor in the cost of ownership. BMW owners, with few exceptions, are pretty happy overall with their vehicles, (EXCLUDING the cost of maintenance for some who do not understand the concept of "If you want to run with the big dogs, you`ve got to pay like the big dogs!" as you are (painfully) aware of with your Caddy-V.)

Turbocharged engines have come along way since the 1990`s, including elimination of turbo lag and engine longevity. Granted , there are some things you will need to consider as "common sense" driving when you have a turbo engine (like letting it warm up before you floor it or cool down before shutting it off after a hard run), BUT one thing you will like about driving turbo engines through your New Mexico mountains is the performance they retain in higher elevations (5000 ft above sea level) over naturally-aspirated engines.

My "other" suggestion? Go rent a car with a turbo for weekend and drive it somewhere with elevation changes. See if you like it. You will never get the same experience from a new or used vehicle dealer`s (or private party) short test drive. Yes, it may be expensive to do so, but it will tell you if you can "live" with a turbocharged engine vehicle. I think you will be "surprised" at what newer turbo technology has to offer.
 
Per Lonnie above ^^^^^

"" there are some things you will need to consider as "common sense" driving when you have a turbo engine (like letting it warm up before you floor it or cool down before shutting it off after a hard run)""...

Truer words were never spoken above ! Thanks, Lonnie !

In my Z3 M Coupe the engine management system would not allow higher rpms UNTIL the Oil Temperature was up to where it was supposed to be..
There was a red hi-lited area of the tach that would light up until the oil temperature was correct, and then it would extinguish...

This car only used the required Castrol 10w-60 that was sourced from Europe... Never had an issue, it never used oil; man, that baby was nice !!!
Back then that oil was $15.00/liter and it used 6 Liters...
Dan F
 
Like others have said, today`s turbos are different from yesterdays. Technology has made some nice jumps. It`s why sooooo many MFGs are using them now.

Things like variable length vanes, twin scroll systems, ceramic ball bearings, and direct injection have made lag a thing of the past. In many cases, a turbo car can reach full boost as low as 2,000 RPM. Then, it maintains a nice, flat torque curve.

My CRX needs a turbo. Oh, that would be so much fun
 
BMW M2?

I own a MY16 M235i. Great car. Road fast and handles really well. If you want track use you can get the LSD option. Not much turbo lag. I threw on a catless downpipe and a bms stage 2 after my break in period and haven`t looked back.
 
Z28 or z06 pick your passion both can put down lap times (since you want something that can corner)


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I love forced induction and while I`ve had many VWs I can tell you that they ain`t cheap to fix. So with refinement, comes price. The same Bosch and BorgWarner parts for the Audio cost more than the same ones for the VW, which aren`t cheap either. My supercharged mustang is cheaper to get parts for and while it is not as refined, it runs like a bat out of hell and is easier to fix. Just talking out loud.

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RaydiantDetail said:
BMW M2?

I own a MY16 M235i. Great car. Road fast and handles really well. If you want track use you can get the LSD option. Not much turbo lag. I threw on a catless downpipe and a bms stage 2 after my break in period and haven`t looked back.
Click to expand...


M235i is a fantastic car, comparable to an e46 M3, arguably one of the best M car`s ever made.
 
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