Getting black PERFECT

I

imported_fishbonezken

New member
what are your combos to getting black absolutely perfect (no fillers from waxes to help:chuckle:)

is it possible with a rotary?

or better to finish off with a DA:waxing:



let's hear your process/opinions!
 
Rotary is better, breaks down polishes more completely.



When I am doing a mutiple step combo, I first do the swirl/defect removal, then I finish first with Optimum Polish using a black LC CCS finishing pad, then follow with 3M Ultrafina using a blue Ultrafina pad. I use OP/LC black prior to UF to make sure any heavier holograms the swirl/defect removal have left behind are minimized as much as possible before going to UF.
 
I've heard a few real talented guys who prefer to finish via PC, but I've always been a rotary guy. 3M Ultrafina never fails, before that it was P085RD on a black pad.



If it's a cloudy day, etc, I will always finish via Cyclo though. I think the gloss is higher on the rotary, and it's a machine that I enjoy using more, but I'll only chance it if I can inspect in proper lighting.
 
Scottwax said:
Rotary is better, breaks down polishes more completely.



When I am doing a mutiple step combo, I first do the swirl/defect removal, then I finish first with Optimum Polish using a black LC CCS finishing pad, then follow with 3M Ultrafina using a blue Ultrafina pad. I use OP/LC black prior to UF to make sure any heavier holograms the swirl/defect removal have left behind are minimized as much as possible before going to UF.
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Scott that's a very interesting step, if you don't mind me asking, why not just stop at OP/LC black?



themightytimmah said:
I've heard a few real talented guys who prefer to finish via PC, but I've always been a rotary guy. 3M Ultrafina never fails, before that it was P085RD on a black pad.



If it's a cloudy day, etc, I will always finish via Cyclo though. I think the gloss is higher on the rotary, and it's a machine that I enjoy using more, but I'll only chance it if I can inspect in proper lighting.
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Excellent point!





thanks for the posts, keep them coming!
 
You've got to have your base perfect: and that's in the compound stage. I get a lot of Black Bimmers and some have hard clear coats while others are so soft they require a lot more "finesse".



Once I determine my compound/pad strategy I work with multiple lighting sources to remove defects. The biggest single technique I've learned is to work the product to clear with ZERO wiping. When compounding, you have removed defects and any previous paint protection, so it is vulnerable to scratching.



Then, it's polish time. I have 2 favorite products for polishing black: Meguiar's #83 and 3M Dark Polishing Glaze. I've also used Adams Revive with excellent results. Again, I work these products to clear with ZERO wiping.



After these 2 process's, I power wash the vehicle to remove dust and excess product. If the weather is bad, I'll use ONR to do this.



Following the polishing process, the dealer wants Ultrafina SE on all Black cars. Not a problem as it applies/removes easily. Now, I can wipe the Ultrafine off...



My last step typically is a sealant to protect the work I've done: Meguiar's #21 or 3M Performance Finish is applied with a finish pad to clear (really a burnishing process).



Toto
 
well ususally when i work with black vehicles, i usually use Menzerna IP, PO106FF, and FPII before my glaze and lsp. the only downside is the dusting and i usually wash the car before the glazing to remove all of it
 
I finish via Cyclo, and never see any decrease in gloss. Final passes are with finishing pads (not the Cyclo white ones) and something with basically no cut. Not nearly as efficient time/effort-wise though, so maybe not the best idea for a pro.



I posted on another thread what it took to see the final holograms on my metallic black Denali XL (two people working together at just the right time of day, it was a very difficult job spotting them, so would anybody else ever see 'em or care :nixweiss ).



But to be honest, IMO the biggest issue with black is *keeping* it perfect, not getting it that way. We sweat out that final 0.05% of gloss and it's all for naught after a few washes (well, by most people).
 
Any black vehicle that's driven regularly won't be perfect. You might remove the swirls but it will still have deeper scratches and pit marks. You can get them looking pretty good tho. In most cases after a couple washes you'll have new swirls. I believe it occurs mostly during the drying process. Some darks are so bad you can instill micromarring just from wiping the sealant off with a MF towell.
 
fishbonezken said:
Scott that's a very interesting step, if you don't mind me asking, why not just stop at OP/LC black?
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Because if people are paying, I want to be 100% sure there are no holograms.
 
Hi Scottwax,



If I remember correctly, you used to use Poli-Seal with a Propel P2 Blue Finishing pad. How does that combo compare to your current Ultrafina combo?

I am currently trying out Poli-Seal with either a Meg's Finishing Pad or LC Curved CCS Blue Finishing Pad. I prefer the feel of the LC Blue, but that's really my personal preference. Either way, the finish of Poli-Seal looks good to my eyes :)
 
vx55 said:
Hi Scottwax,



If I remember correctly, you used to use Poli-Seal with a Propel P2 Blue Finishing pad. How does that combo compare to your current Ultrafina combo?

I am currently trying out Poli-Seal with either a Meg's Finishing Pad or LC Curved CCS Blue Finishing Pad. I prefer the feel of the LC Blue, but that's really my personal preference. Either way, the finish of Poli-Seal looks good to my eyes :)
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I don't like to finish with PS and a rotary when money is on the line. It definitely fills and sometimes marring comes back. I love it for family and friend's cars, but I use a white pad though.
 
Lets remember that perfect is an illusion controlled by the limited range of vision that we (humans) have. Under enough magnifaction nothing is perfect, including paint. Even paint that appears perfect isn't, but has defects. So when we describe perfect we have to look at the different possibilities...



Defect/hologram free- Paint has very good gloss and is perfect to the human eye.



Micrscopically perfect- The paint has been further improved by leveling at extreme magnification. Paint has extreme gloss. Again its not perfect but "more perfect".



Lets start with defect removal... (My discussion revolves around rotary usage only).



I break it down to three stages: Defect Removal, Refinement, Jeweling



Defect Removal: To get paint perfect you have to have a perfect base. Usually this involves removing all of damaged paint and generally requires aggressive compounding. Sometimes paint is in such good shape that this isn't required (or the paint is very soft and compounding can be counter productive). Other times you may find yourself using several compoundings and various cutting pads to get the to where you want to go.



Refinement: The damage is removed from the compounding step, gloss is restored. The goal of this step is to get the paint to as close to LSP ready as possible. Usually a meduim grit polish and a polishing pad are you used. Sometimes one pass is all that is required where as some paints you might find yourself using various polishes and paints to get the paint moving in the right direction.



Jeweling: The final step. Holograms are removed and the paint looks great. How far we take the jeweling step will determine the final gloss (provided the previous steps where excuted perfectly). Usually one step is used with a non mechanical pad, though certain pro's (Ryan and myself) will sometimes spend up to 4 hours jeweling the paint if we feel more gloss is obtainable.



Let me give you two different examples of my three stage correction process.



EXAMPLE ONE:



DEFECT REMOVAL:3M-Extra Cut on LC Purple Wool pad (paint looks hazy but defects are removed)



REFINEMENT: Menzerna PO83 on a LC White CCS pad (PO91 wasn't strong enough). Worked the polish in well to bring paint to highest gloss. Prep-Sol wipe revealed light traces of holograms, paint is ready to be jeweld)



JEWELING: Car is going to be in a show and is black. Menzerna PO106ff on a Gray LC pad followed by Menzerna PO85rd.



Another example would be a black lambo we did that was terrible.



COMPOUNDING: 3M Extra Cut on twisted wool (left deep wool marring) x 3-4

SIP on Meg's Yellow Wool (removed most wool marring)

REFINEMENT: SIP on LC Green CCS Pad x 2 (two passes where required)

JEWELING: 106ff on a LC White CCS Pad

PO87mc on a red CCS Pad



I really depends on the paint and what your eyes see. If you really want the longest lasting, most permentant results each application of polish must be worked fully and I recommend wiping with a solvent or alochol after each application and examining the paint very closesly. Also try not to "skip" steps and take your time performing each stage.



Best of luck!



Todd
 
fishbonezken said:
wow thanks for the post Todd! it's really helpful. Okay based on you and other people's post, I have to change my mindset as I thought swirl free = perfect!
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I think thats pretty common. You'd be shocked if I told you what some "detailers" have said LSP is. I actually started a thread about it a little while ago and Ryan came up with a great explanation of LSP ready. Todd also had a great explanation there too.
 
TH0001- VERY good post :xyxthumbs



And yeah, magnification can be very informative. Stuff you can't really see with the naked eye can still make all the difference.



About the only place I differ from what you posted is that I don't start what I consider the jeweling/burnishing until *after* have have the holograms out, but I suspect that the holograms *you* get are probably a lot milder than the ones *I* get ;)



Guess one man's "refining" is another guy's "jeweling" :D and it's easy to get too caught up in the terminology (which is probably what I'm doing here).
 
D&D Auto Detail said:
I think thats pretty common. You'd be shocked if I told you what some "detailers" have said LSP is. I actually started a thread about it a little while ago and Ryan came up with a great explanation of LSP ready. Todd also had a great explanation there too.
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Thanks Dan! found the thread with the great post by Ryan. Here's the link to the post if anyone wants to see it:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/102547-lsp-ready.html#post1071713
 
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