Ford Engineers - Business as Ussual

Swanicyouth

Swanicyouth

New member
So, it's been almost 20 years since I wrenched for Ford. At the time, we dealt with a plethora of stupid engineering designs like composite rotors on the Taurus that just warped and fell apart, a 10 foot twisted mess of leaky power steering lines that only traveled 3 feet, plastics power steering reservoirs that leaked and broke - I could go on and on....

Was anyone in Dearborn testing this stuff? Are the engineers drunk?

It seems much hasn't changed... Now the Eco Boost is a few years old, they're failing as well.

Ford Ecoboost Warning Part 2 My Findings - YouTube

Yeah... I know is spelled Usual wrong.
 
I remember the problems on the old Taurus you mention well. The power steering lines were nothing short of madening.

I watched this guy's video and appreciated what he was saying. I do believe he could be on to something with how the crankcase ventilation system is routed. That said, there could be more to this story.

I've seen valves in running engines with tons more deposits on them than those shown. Of course they weren't on this type engine either. What went through my mind is wondering if his vehicle has started using more oil across the board in recent months? Wondered if he uses the recommended grade oil, if his changes are on schedule, type of driving (i.e. stop and go vs. highway) etc. As a rule of thumb pressurized engines are tough on rings and oil consumption in general as well as bearings, wrist pins, vave guides etc..

I've read about some of the various problems on the EcoBoosts (mostly the 6 poppers) but can't say I've seen markedly more complaints on it than many other engines that are out there. Mind you I'm not defending these engines. I just have to wonder if there is sufficient information in that video to damn the entire line. There are a lot of these engines on the road by now. Time will no doubt tell.
 
GearHead_1 said:
I remember the problems on the old Taurus you mention well. The power steering lines were nothing short of madening.

I watched this guy's video and appreciated what he was saying. I do believe he could be on to something with how the crankcase ventilation system is routed. That said, there could be more to this story.

I've seen valves in running engines with tons more deposits on them than those shown. Of course they weren't on this type engine either. What went through my mind is wondering if his vehicle has started using more oil across the board in recent months? Wondered if he uses the recommended grade oil, if his changes are on schedule, type of driving (i.e. stop and go vs. highway) etc. As a rule of thumb pressurized engines are tough on rings and oil consumption in general as well as bearings, wrist pins, vave guides etc..

I've read about some of the various problems on the EcoBoosts (mostly the 6 poppers) but can't say I've seen markedly more complaints on it than many other engines that are out there. Mind you I'm not defending these engines. I just have to wonder if there is sufficient information in that video to damn the entire line. There are a lot of these engines on the road by now. Time will no doubt tell.
Click to expand...

GM Direct Injection engines are notorious for oil in the intake manifolds. I wonder why they don't use any sort of PCV catch can to reduce excess oil being returned to it, other than cost cutting.
 
To be absolutely sure where the leak/s is/are coming from, you need to do a leakdown test..

I too have seen lots of engines with huge amounts of oily deposits on top of the Intake Valves, more than the Exhaust Valves (which run hotter), and the cars ran fine.. But they were not direct injected...

Have also seen more bad valve guides with bad valve seals on the stems,than anything..
Valve seats next..

In my first experience with turbocharged engines (1985 Buick Grand National), that little bad boy was fast !!! The thing to do was to let it idle for a few minutes so that the oil could circulate longer around the turbo bearings and help cool them down before shut off.. They even sold a part that could sense turbo bearing temps and run the oil pump longer to keep cooling the bearings down before automatically shutting down..

Never had bearings fail, turbo failure, excess oil in the intake, etc...

I changed the oil a lot more often though to help keep new, clean, working oil circulating around those things..

Guess with all these longer oil change intervals, there will also be a lot more turbo chargers dying and people having to replace them..

Especially now that a lot of manufacturers are actually returning to an old technology to get more power from little engines..

The only vehicle I ever saw extra oil (in the Intake Boot of the Air Cleaner) in was my Ford Lightning with the 5.0L Supercharged engine.. Im guessing the Supercharger somehow blew it there from somewhere - perhaps from the Supercharger itself...
It never hurt anything or changed the performance of this incredibly fast F150...
Dan F
 
This is NOT just a Ford problem I have read of other owners with build up problems but they were not on a Ford.
CRC now makes a special spray for direct injected engines to clean the deposits from the engine.
I bought a new Focus in 09 glad I bought when I did I was just before the direct injected engines, Nearly 5 years and have not touched it she runs like new. Mine is naturally aspirated 2.0
 
New heads every 20k miles

Keeps the engine fresh :)

GDI engines gonna have different problems down the pike
 
It's no so much the intake deposit issue I was commenting on in my original post (although that's a a big part of it) - but Ford's way of dealing with it.

No fix. No treatment. No even recommending to try to clean the valves manually with a brush as the tech did.

They can't come up with SOME WAY to ATTEMPT to keep the turbo cool while doing an intake cleaning service?

Set up fans?

Use Ice?

Bathe the exhaust in warm water while the cleaner is running?

A cleaning additive that doesn't burn hotter?

Engineering can't come up with SOMETHING????

This is what I mean by "Ford Engineering: Business as Usual"...

I can remember the old problems with stupid designs that seem like engineering was clueless...

1. Bronco 4x4s that constantly warped rotors... The setup was so bad often hanging new pads and rotors was just a temporary fix.

Ford's Solution: Mega $$$ rotor cutting machine that cut rotors on the vehicle. This machine sounded like someone was getting murdered when it cut. Then the rotors came out chattered so it sounded like a helicopter every time the owner used the brakes.

Ultimate Solution: Generic brake pads and rotors from Big A fixed the problem.

2. Early 4.0 Explorer's whose intake and valve cover gaskets poured out oil on low mileage cars.

Ford's Solution: replace gaskets with same "Made in Germany" gaskets. Would be leaking as bad in 6 mos.

Ultimate Solution: aftermarket gaskets fixed the issue once they were available. It seems NAPA or whomever could make a gasket that wouldn't leak...Ford - No.

3. Tempos and Taurus' with rubber bushing outer tie rod ends that failed in about 20k.

Ford's Solution: your probably noticing a pattern by now. Just put on new rubber tie rod ends.

Ultimate Solution: aftermarket conventional tie rod ends with zerk fittings.

I could go on all day. Change heads after 20k...Are you kidding me ???
 
black bart said:
...CRC now makes a special spray for direct injected engines to clean the deposits from the engine.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, need something to replace the fresh fuel mix that once went across the back of the valves and in effect was the cleaning solvent. Gotta think there's going to be more of these kinds of reports as DI becomes the next big thing.
 
Swanicyouth, what you say is true but not just a Ford thing. Have you taken a look at MOPAR's answer for the 5.7 Hemi tick? There answer for years was that noise is normal. Have you looked at the fix for the broken timing chains in the Hemi engines. There wasn't an extended warranty for a known problem that was eating engine and you can't see this one coming. GM and Toyota took a decade to acknowledge responsibility for ignition switches that were killing people. What's it take to get a fix? All manufacturers do the same thing until the volume of problems mount until they can no longer stay under the radar or the lawsuits mount to a point where it shows in the bottom line.
 
I guess I have been really lucky my daily driver is 92 Explorer in almost 23 years total maintenance has been a set of brake pads.
I also have a 2000 Ranger with the same bogus engine that he speaks of it is a low mileage truck but in 120.000 miles total maintenance has been oil and filter changes that's it.
 
^ This is actually my point. I'm familiar with carbon deposits being a fundamental issue with all DI engines. BMW is well known for carbon deposits on its DI x35i engines.

However, at least they have come up with *some* reasonable/rational recommendation for dealing with the issue via walnut blasting and the BMW adapter to fit the intake ports...

Ford's answer... Replace the head? What type of fix is that? How much is that $7k? I'm surprised they just didn't offer "Replace the Car" as the fix.
 

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Swanicyouth said:
3. Tempos and Taurus' with rubber bushing outer tie rod ends that failed in about 20k.
Click to expand...

GM seems to have had the same problem with Grand Prix/Lacrosse, ridiculous. I wonder if it's the same supplier?

I guess that's a consequence of GM not being the company they were, they used to make virtually everything that went in the car, unlike Ford and Chrysler (not sure if any of the imports were as heavily integrated as GM).

GM had Harrison Radiator that made the radiators, heater cores, and A/C condensers, Packard Wiring, Guide Headlight, Rochester Carburetor, AC Delco, Saginaw Steering...you opened the hood and everything was made by GM. Now they most of them are gone or sold off, and you can have an ignition switch, airbag, tie rod end, etc. that's sold to every car maker on the planet.

I'm just saying things are different now, global economy, blah blah blah, and instead of a recall being isolated to one company, it could be all of them.

Sorry for the interruption, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
 
black bart said:
Here is a link to more about this like I said it is NOT just a Ford problem. More info. Ask An Engineer: GDI Problems In A Nutshell - The Truth About Cars
Click to expand...

Oh...this came up in another thread here or on AGO and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how intake air was causing carbon deposits on the intake valve...now I get it--the PCV is going into the manifold so that's the hydrocarbon source.

Sounds like ultimately there is going to be coalescing filter in the PCV system that will have to be changed periodically. Sheesh, remember when we used to change PCV valves on cars as a routine maintenance? I haven't changed a PCV valve in like forever. I remember wearing out the intake manifold grommet in one car I had for a long time...ha ha the parts I used to ask for at the dealer for that car...I used to get the funniest looks/comments from the parts guy--the best was when I had the trans swapped and the yo-yo's at the trans shop didn't take an exhaust bracket off the old trans that attached to the catalyst and my exhaust was moving around...and he said "now how would you break something like that??" like my purpose in life was to make him order weird parts that he had never ordered before.

Am I still talking? Sorry.
 
The real issue is in the inherent design of DI engines. I don't believe it's a PCV issue.

The fuel is not hitting the intake valve - but being sprayed right into the chamber. Therefore, no fuel additives/detergents/cleaners - or the fuel itself is unable to clean the valve. This is why additives to the fuel can not fix this. Heat from hotter running turbos also exacerbate the deposit situation.

Fixes like meth injection, adding another injector to the intake, catch cans, and PCV re-designs are just Band Aids to the issue.

This is one of the main reasons I'm driving around in the last i6 normally aspirated M car.
 
Swanicyouth said:
The real issue is in the inherent design of DI engines. I don't believe it's a PCV issue.

The fuel is not hitting the intake valve - but being sprayed right into the chamber. Therefore, no fuel additives/detergents/cleaners - or the fuel itself is unable to clean the valve.
Click to expand...

Ok, so there's nothing to clean the valve...without the PCV products being dumped in there, there's also nothing to get the valve dirty, just filtered air...air doesn't break down and cause deposits. To get carbon deposits, you need carbon. Not much carbon in air (a little CO2, which doesn't break down at intake temperatures), but plenty of carbon in the hydrocarbons that make up PCV scavenge (motor oil, gasoline).
 
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