Does Car Paint Dry Out?
- Thread starter jps
- Start date
svanderbilt
New member
Ha! I think that's the 1 extravagence Brad didn't use! Never mind the floor drains, air conditoning/heating, tv, etc... and I swear he has a hydraulic lift, too.
But damn, if I had 2 Audi's, a Jag, Porsche, Bimmer, etc, I hope I'd have an equally impressive laboratory to work on 'em.
But damn, if I had 2 Audi's, a Jag, Porsche, Bimmer, etc, I hope I'd have an equally impressive laboratory to work on 'em.
imported_akimel
New member
A few days ago I asked Kevin Brown this question: Does car paint dry out? I expected him to respond with a two sentence answer. Instead I received a lengthy response from him. He has given me permission to post his response here on TID. Enjoy!
***
Al-
I think that is a great question! Not an easy one to answer, though.
Hope you don't mind... I am sending your question and my response to my buddies Todd Helme, Chris Dasher, Bryan Burnworth, Bob Willis, Paul (the other pc), and Tim Lingor. Perhaps they can give their opinions on the matter, or correct me if I am way off base on my theories. I do not have the scientific education to discuss things like electrons, atoms, and covalent bonds (and on and on and on!)
Here is my take on the subject:
The guys from Zymol would certainly argue that petro solvents definitely "dry out" paint over the long haul. If fact, that was there credo when they first launched Zymol. I am not doubting nor agreeing with the opinion.
We know that things oxidize, and paint is no exception. But can it oxidize throughout the paint, not just on the surface? I think that the answer is yes.
Automotive paint will allow certain materials to soak into it, and then eventually evaporate. We read about paint swell all the time. A guy polishes paint, it looks great for a day or two, then the scratches magically reappear. I have even seen a car that had water transfer through the clear coat layer of paint. Magnetic signs were attached to the car. It rained one day, and after the storm had passed, the car sat out in the Las Vegas sun. When the signs were removed, water entered the paint and was trapped between the clear and base coat. It was milky white and transparent . Jason Rose recommended that the lady take her car to a body shop and have them heat the door using infra red lighting in hopes of evaporating the water. It worked!
Although this situation does not necessarily support the fact that the paint moistened and then dried, it does confirm that the paint on that car had an ability to allow liquid to enter its structure and then release it. Of course, I am a realist, and I seriously doubt that if we were able to peel a piece of paint from a panel and then place droplets of water on top of the paint, the water would start dripping through the other side. I am just thinking things through here, without the benefit of all the proper scientific terminology.
Instead of thinking about paint as we see it, we should liken it to a structure- any structure, that has an ability to contract and expand. How about the fibers of a wool pad? I have been thinking about the nuances of wool, cotton, and microfiber a lot lately, so we will go with wool.
I was actually pondering wool fibers and how they are shaped. I remember reading about lambswool seat covers (a long time ago), and how wool the fibers were essentially hollow (think of a typical drinking straw). The article mentioned that this was how wool was able to whisk away moisture (such as sweat). I have not confirmed this information, nor am I disputing it. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not. Likely, the fine wool strands that make up wool as a whole have some void area between the smaller fibers (that make up a fiber), and moisture gets trapped in the air pockets between the fibers. By allowing wool to break the large puddles of moisture into small puddles, the moisture evaporates at an increased rate because:
1. More water surface area is exposed to air, so the evaporation rate is increased.
2. The heat residing in the fibers helps to accelerate evaporation, and because the water is more evenly dispersed across a larger area, so the fibers don't cool as quickly.
Therefore, the wool fibers do not literally soak in moisture and then swell.
They are simply holding onto the water via mechanical attachment.
Next point: When wool pads are dry, clean, and spurred, they are relatively fluffy.
Structure certainly must have something to do with the fluffiness, but friction between the fibers must have a lot to do with it, too. When a pad is washed and then spun-dry (such as when we mount a wool pad to a rotary and pull the trigger), the individual fibers are able to collapse, and they remain somewhat straightened. This leads me to believe that due to friction, the fibers retain a straightened shape. Consequently, the fibers pack more tightly against each other, and we generally see an increase in cutting power. Likely, cutting power increases for two reasons:
1. Instead of lots of very thin fibers that are easily bent and can easily reshape as they encounter an obstacle, we end up with tightly packed and straightened fibers. Since they are now tightly packed against each other and have less air space between them, they cannot move about as they could before. Consequently, they do not easily deflect when they encounter obstacles, so they tend to better push through those obstacles.
2. We see an increase in kinetic energy from the larger fibers because they are moving in tandem, effectively moving as one mass. The net result is more leveling power.
Anyway- I could go on and on about pads and liquids, but I won't. Back to "dried out" paint!
Perhaps the term "dry paint" should be considered "dry" or "dead" when it:
? Loses elasticity
? Can no longer contract and expand
? Can no longer flex
? Does not allow liquid to permeate or penetrate its structure
Could elasticity ever be restored? Or does the paint change forever once its original level of elasticity is gone?
I think the latter is true with the technology available today. I do not doubt that "feeder oils" or other liquids could revitalize the uppermost portion of paint, but I am not sure how long lasting the effect is. Glazes, waxes, sealants- they all can form a protective barrier upon the paint exposed to the environment, but they do not protect paint in any other way. Does extreme heat cause oxidation? Seems to me that it could if any reaction takes place during the heating or cooling process. By oxidation I am referring to the true sense of the word, not just when oxygen causes a "drying" or "slow burning" of a surface or item.
If we had a solvent or a gaseous process that could find its way through the paint, then perhaps the areas of the paint that used to be voids OR the areas that have lost their ability to flex could be restored to their original condition or shape. With what we have available today, anything that could find its way into and out the backside of a layer of automotive paint would likely destroy it before real restoration occurred. Acetone is a good example. Definitely acetone could swell paint, but if left to soak in it, the acetone would eventually cause the paint to fail in some manner (peel, dissolve, or dry out via oxidation's slow burning process). Therefore, I suppose that if a filling in of the "space" throughout the paint structure is actually able to occur (for lack of a better term I have to use the word space... and I refuse to use the term "pores"), a solvent that could penetrate into these areas might extend the longevity of the paint... assuming it is not causing the problem in the first place. Can you imagine the drying effect acetone would have if we were able to pump it throughout a paint structure? I can envision collapsed links of paint, slowly revitalizing, opening up on a molecular level. Then, since acetone evaporates at a pretty quick rate, it would leave open space, simliar to what might be present when the paint was first sprayed. At this point the structure has been restored, but what about flexibility? I'd bet that the restructured paint would "look" as it did originally, but it would either BECOME very brittle, or continue to BE very brittle.
The best thing that could happen to paint in the future would be technology that allows reduction versus oxidation (way above my scientific education level). This would involve the use of exotic metals instilled in some sort of coating (paint or powder coat, for instance). Seems doable if the financial benefit was there for some high tech company to pursue it. Paint that does not oxidize!
I think the closest thing we are going to see to it in our lifetime is spray on liquid glass:
http://www.physorg.com/news184310039.html
CAN YOU IMAGINE?!
Kevin Brown
***
Al-
I think that is a great question! Not an easy one to answer, though.
Hope you don't mind... I am sending your question and my response to my buddies Todd Helme, Chris Dasher, Bryan Burnworth, Bob Willis, Paul (the other pc), and Tim Lingor. Perhaps they can give their opinions on the matter, or correct me if I am way off base on my theories. I do not have the scientific education to discuss things like electrons, atoms, and covalent bonds (and on and on and on!)
Here is my take on the subject:
The guys from Zymol would certainly argue that petro solvents definitely "dry out" paint over the long haul. If fact, that was there credo when they first launched Zymol. I am not doubting nor agreeing with the opinion.
We know that things oxidize, and paint is no exception. But can it oxidize throughout the paint, not just on the surface? I think that the answer is yes.
Automotive paint will allow certain materials to soak into it, and then eventually evaporate. We read about paint swell all the time. A guy polishes paint, it looks great for a day or two, then the scratches magically reappear. I have even seen a car that had water transfer through the clear coat layer of paint. Magnetic signs were attached to the car. It rained one day, and after the storm had passed, the car sat out in the Las Vegas sun. When the signs were removed, water entered the paint and was trapped between the clear and base coat. It was milky white and transparent . Jason Rose recommended that the lady take her car to a body shop and have them heat the door using infra red lighting in hopes of evaporating the water. It worked!
Although this situation does not necessarily support the fact that the paint moistened and then dried, it does confirm that the paint on that car had an ability to allow liquid to enter its structure and then release it. Of course, I am a realist, and I seriously doubt that if we were able to peel a piece of paint from a panel and then place droplets of water on top of the paint, the water would start dripping through the other side. I am just thinking things through here, without the benefit of all the proper scientific terminology.
Instead of thinking about paint as we see it, we should liken it to a structure- any structure, that has an ability to contract and expand. How about the fibers of a wool pad? I have been thinking about the nuances of wool, cotton, and microfiber a lot lately, so we will go with wool.
I was actually pondering wool fibers and how they are shaped. I remember reading about lambswool seat covers (a long time ago), and how wool the fibers were essentially hollow (think of a typical drinking straw). The article mentioned that this was how wool was able to whisk away moisture (such as sweat). I have not confirmed this information, nor am I disputing it. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not. Likely, the fine wool strands that make up wool as a whole have some void area between the smaller fibers (that make up a fiber), and moisture gets trapped in the air pockets between the fibers. By allowing wool to break the large puddles of moisture into small puddles, the moisture evaporates at an increased rate because:
1. More water surface area is exposed to air, so the evaporation rate is increased.
2. The heat residing in the fibers helps to accelerate evaporation, and because the water is more evenly dispersed across a larger area, so the fibers don't cool as quickly.
Therefore, the wool fibers do not literally soak in moisture and then swell.
They are simply holding onto the water via mechanical attachment.
Next point: When wool pads are dry, clean, and spurred, they are relatively fluffy.
Structure certainly must have something to do with the fluffiness, but friction between the fibers must have a lot to do with it, too. When a pad is washed and then spun-dry (such as when we mount a wool pad to a rotary and pull the trigger), the individual fibers are able to collapse, and they remain somewhat straightened. This leads me to believe that due to friction, the fibers retain a straightened shape. Consequently, the fibers pack more tightly against each other, and we generally see an increase in cutting power. Likely, cutting power increases for two reasons:
1. Instead of lots of very thin fibers that are easily bent and can easily reshape as they encounter an obstacle, we end up with tightly packed and straightened fibers. Since they are now tightly packed against each other and have less air space between them, they cannot move about as they could before. Consequently, they do not easily deflect when they encounter obstacles, so they tend to better push through those obstacles.
2. We see an increase in kinetic energy from the larger fibers because they are moving in tandem, effectively moving as one mass. The net result is more leveling power.
Anyway- I could go on and on about pads and liquids, but I won't. Back to "dried out" paint!
Perhaps the term "dry paint" should be considered "dry" or "dead" when it:
? Loses elasticity
? Can no longer contract and expand
? Can no longer flex
? Does not allow liquid to permeate or penetrate its structure
Could elasticity ever be restored? Or does the paint change forever once its original level of elasticity is gone?
I think the latter is true with the technology available today. I do not doubt that "feeder oils" or other liquids could revitalize the uppermost portion of paint, but I am not sure how long lasting the effect is. Glazes, waxes, sealants- they all can form a protective barrier upon the paint exposed to the environment, but they do not protect paint in any other way. Does extreme heat cause oxidation? Seems to me that it could if any reaction takes place during the heating or cooling process. By oxidation I am referring to the true sense of the word, not just when oxygen causes a "drying" or "slow burning" of a surface or item.
If we had a solvent or a gaseous process that could find its way through the paint, then perhaps the areas of the paint that used to be voids OR the areas that have lost their ability to flex could be restored to their original condition or shape. With what we have available today, anything that could find its way into and out the backside of a layer of automotive paint would likely destroy it before real restoration occurred. Acetone is a good example. Definitely acetone could swell paint, but if left to soak in it, the acetone would eventually cause the paint to fail in some manner (peel, dissolve, or dry out via oxidation's slow burning process). Therefore, I suppose that if a filling in of the "space" throughout the paint structure is actually able to occur (for lack of a better term I have to use the word space... and I refuse to use the term "pores"), a solvent that could penetrate into these areas might extend the longevity of the paint... assuming it is not causing the problem in the first place. Can you imagine the drying effect acetone would have if we were able to pump it throughout a paint structure? I can envision collapsed links of paint, slowly revitalizing, opening up on a molecular level. Then, since acetone evaporates at a pretty quick rate, it would leave open space, simliar to what might be present when the paint was first sprayed. At this point the structure has been restored, but what about flexibility? I'd bet that the restructured paint would "look" as it did originally, but it would either BECOME very brittle, or continue to BE very brittle.
The best thing that could happen to paint in the future would be technology that allows reduction versus oxidation (way above my scientific education level). This would involve the use of exotic metals instilled in some sort of coating (paint or powder coat, for instance). Seems doable if the financial benefit was there for some high tech company to pursue it. Paint that does not oxidize!
I think the closest thing we are going to see to it in our lifetime is spray on liquid glass:
http://www.physorg.com/news184310039.html
CAN YOU IMAGINE?!
Kevin Brown
bmw5541
New member
Al,
Thanks for sharing this with us. It was truly a facinating read. Also, thanks to Kevin for taking the time to write it out.:clap:
Thanks for sharing this with us. It was truly a facinating read. Also, thanks to Kevin for taking the time to write it out.:clap:
imported_Flash Gordon
New member
You thought Kevin would give a simple 2 sentence answer.....:banghead:
imported_Luster
New member
Wisdom beyond his years... Great answer!:cornut:
imported_Bence
New member
As we all gaining more and more experience with the covalent silane coatings, we can see their positive effects.
However, they can be VERY different... Some of them feels like bare paint, others are slick. Some can be applied on painted surfaces only, others can go over plastics, rubber, etc.
However, they can be VERY different... Some of them feels like bare paint, others are slick. Some can be applied on painted surfaces only, others can go over plastics, rubber, etc.