Customer Complaint - need advice guys/gals

T

Twinscroll

New member
Hi All,



This is a customer of mine and his work truck that he uses for his landscaping business. He told me that he was not too terribly concerned with getting the major scratches and stuff out but just wanted a good over all wax with some light cleaning power to get some of the gloss back.



<INSERT BEFORE PICTURES>





















So my immediate thought for the LSP was Zymol Cleaner Wax applied with a Edge2000 white polishing pad all using the PC no rotary.



My process for the truck:

-Pressure washed truck / truck bed / wheel wells (it's a 1200psi electric @ about 4ft away.

-washed truck / truck bed / wheel wells and everything in between)

-Dried entire vehicle



Here is where the other steps come in:

-Since he was a friend of mine from school and I'm a bit of a perfectionist I wanted to really give him and myself a clean slate to work with. So,



-I clayed the entire truck

-sprayed the truck down again with the pressure washer to remove clay mixture

-wiped the entire truck with ISA:Water mixture (50:50)



Now most of the contaminants are gone. And remember he is paying me for a basic wash, wax, clean job as far as detailing goes.



So, I start out with the white fine polishing pad / Zymol Cleaner Wax combo. I quickly realize that this is definitely not going to do what needs to be done to the truck regardless of price.



I then stepped up to the orange edge2000 pad and Meg's Swirl Remover 2.0. This netted the best results for my test panel. So I then applied it to the entire car.



<INSERT HOOD & ROOF PICTURE>







ROOF BEFORE









However, when I got to the hood (as you can see in the pictures) there was a spot right above the engine that was extremely fadded and dull and not smooth at all to the touch. I did the best I could with this spot but as I ran over it with my PC I could see the Meg's 2.0 almost get stuck in the paint. I stepped up and ran over the spot several times but to no avail. So, from there I decided that the amount of time spent on this and the roof was more than enough for what the customer was paying me for. So I moved on and made a note to mention this to the customer when I delieverd the vehicle.



After, I wiped the truck down again with ISA and water



Then proceeded to finish the truck off with the Zymol and white fine polishing pad.



Here are the pictures I took of the work done and finished as I was dropping it off.



<INSERT FINISHED PICTURES>



















The truck is delieverd. The customer has looked over the truck and delievers the money to me the next day. I then get a call about about a week later after the customer has washed the truck and noticed swirls in the paint and that the hood and roof now seem to be in worse condition than before.



These two are the roof:









This is the hood.





I'm not really sure what happened and so I wanted to post this on here to get more feedback from the pros.



I want to make it right for the customer as best I can. I want to be able to explain what happened. If there are questions you need to ask to probe please feel free. I'll be the first to admit if a mistake was made but just let me know what I can do to fix this..if anything.
 
Looks like clearcoat failure to me. If it is a business truck and over 10 years old (looks to be late 90s) that sits outside most of the time then it seems like the damage was already done before you even started on it.



To 'fix' it would take a repaint. If that's how the vehicle looked before you started on it, you should have made it perfectly clear that the hood and roof could not be repaired or even improved.



Tell your friend he needs to wax his vehicle more than once every couple years, especially in the landscaping business.
 
Well you can fix it... But why? It's obvious to anyone looking at the pics the guy got way more than he paid for in the first place. If he washed it since they I would guess he probably induced the swirls with less than optimum washing techniques. Of course telling him that might just make things worse...



As I see it you have a couple of options. You can show him all the before and after pics and explain what you did compared to what was actually paid for. If he's resonable maybe he'll see what kind of idiot he is being.



Or you can eat the money and time and correct to his satisfaction with no money just to save a customer. either way it's your call.
 
Did you know that the paint was failing and that any correction/paint removal steps

would only speed up the ultimate failure?



This is how it should have been understood and explained from the get-go.

But what's done is done. Lesson learned. Explain it to him that the paint was

failing and you did the best you could to "revive" what little there was. Which

is what you did. Go from there.
 
I'd have to ask him what he washed it with, because I'd swear it was a brillo pad.... improper wash technique can cause the nastest of swirls!



I am seeing this guy after a long hard day at work dropping the wash mitt on the ground and picking it back up and continuing to wash the truck. and then wondering *duh* what happened......
 
The Customer's E-mail to me:



"Here are the pictures, they are not that good but you can see what I am talking about. There are defined lines in the paint left by the buffer. To me, it looks like those spots were hit too many times with the buffer and burned through. I have waxed my old car that had tons of oxidation with a buffer and never had this problem. Let me know what you think."



And my response to the customer:



"I can see what you are talking about. What I am going to do is go back to my before pictures of the truck. I know that with the pad and polish combo that I used on the truck there is no way that it cut through the clear coat. The polisher that I use is a random orbital polisher (Porter Cable 7424) which is not the direct drive buffer. The random orbital does not have enough power to burn through paint.



The DeWalt direct drive rotary polisher does but that was not used on this truck. What you paid for was a light polish and wax which is exactly what I did to the truck. The areas such as the hood spot and the top of the truck were/are way beyond what a cleaner wax could repair. What you're actually seeing on the hood and the top of the cab are the orbit tracks from the buffer. With the Zymol cleaner wax I used it had just enough strength to remove a very minute amount of oxidation (actually making it worse it appears after it was washed).



I can re-assure you that that the buffer I used and the Zymol cleaner wax do not have enough strength or power to burn or cut through much of anything. I am definitely not arguing the fact that it looks worse than it does before and I will fix it as soon as I am back in town to the best of my ability.



The car was cleaned, clayed, and wiped down with ISA and water mixture before I polished any part of the truck so there is no way that those are swirl marks left from contaminants left in the paint.I will and am going to post this on a detailing forum I am a member of to get others opinions as far as the condition of the paint before I touched the truck and to see if I went wrong somewhere in here. I do apologize <customer> for it looking worse. I know I felt that I did a good job with what you were looking to spend on the truck. It might even be that some of the wax is still stuck in the oxidation. I'm not 100% sure which is why I am going to post it up to see what others have to say. This way I can get a bit more information on possibilities and ways to fix it.



~Tyler Cookson

Owner T.C. Detailing LLC "





Todd@bsaw

-the truck is a 97' Chevy 1500 and was used before he purchased the truck. It does sit on a step driveway outside at all times with the sun beating down on it.



Flashtime

-I did know the paint was in bad shape but I did not know it was that bad. And that anything I did would speed it up because it was looking pretty good when all was said and done..but what a learning experience this is.



Jakerooni

- Thank you for your suggestions. I mean in the end I believe this is what I will do (explain what happend to the customer). I had some 20+ very happy customers and of course the last car I did over the summer, something like this would happen.



The customer and I spoke before I started work on the truck and he did point out the spots. I told him that I would do the best that I could but I was pretty sure (in my head) that those were not coming out with any amount of polishing. What I should have done was made this extremely clear to the customer.



The customer definitely did get more than what he paid for in my mind. I spent a total of about 8 hours on the vehicle.



<This is the sales receipt>



1x WIPE DOWN INTERIOR DASH AND CENTER CONSOLE

1x VACUUM INTERIOR (DRIVERS SIDE / PASS SIDE, INCLUDING CREVICES)

1x WIPE DOWN ALL DOOR JAMBS

1x WASH / DRY

1x APPLIED CLEANER WAX (ZYMOL)

1x TIRE DRESSING

1x CLEAN INSIDE FENDER WELLS

1x PRESSURE WASHED TRUCK BED

1x CLEANED WINDOWS

1x CLEANED & POLISHED ALL CHROME AND EXHAUST

1x LIGHT POLISH OF HEADLIGHTS AND TAIL LIGHTS



TOTAL $155

Total discount $0

Subtotal $155

Total $155



Be all and end all I will be traveling back up to Northern VA this coming weekend and will speak with the customer. I will be sure to update you all on the outcome. I can not say how much I appreciate the honesty and advice. I was definitely really bummed because I thought I really screwed up and did something horribly wrong. But in the end it really does seem like clear coat failure and that it was far too gone before I got to it and that since I was the last to touch it the blame falls on me.



The guy is a friend of mine from back in high school and owns his own company as well.



If there is more advice on how to approach this conversation with the customer that would be greatly appreciated. I do not want to throw myself under the bus because I believe there were far more variables that led to this result than just me. So I would like to be able to defend myself but also help the customer understand that I truly had the best intentions at heart and that.



Sincerely,

Tyler Cookson

Owner T.C. Detailing LLC

​
 
Sometimes, paint failure does look like someone over buffed the paint.

You'll see heavy scratch patterns even after mild washes (as bwalker25

points out). And when the clear has failed/degraded, the slightist marks

will look and be exaggerated. This would give the obvious impression

that it was over buffed when in fact it wasn't. I'm not a chemist nor a pro

detailer but i've painted a few hundred vehicles and repaired/refinished

many such failures. It needs to be sanded down, primed and painted.

Since it would have ultimately needed to be refinished and all you really

did was speed that up, i'd offer to split the cost (hood and roof only).
 
You polished paint suffering from clear coat failure. That only makes it worse. When I run across it, I let the customer know that the vehicle is beyond a detailing solution.



I guess now you know, eh? We all find out stuff the hard way, you are definitely not alone.
 
This post reminds me to use a vehicle inspection sheet with customer sign-off BEFORE any work is started. Many times I have previewed a car with the owner and they didn't realize a door ding or scratch that sticks out to all of us.
 
if its not paint failure, hit it with megs 83...it will finish down fine on the harder chevy clear, and remove more Oxidation than a cleaner wax...use a orange light cutting pad as well...it will work better than zymol and a light polishing pad. PC, speed 6 only!!!



just another option to throw in the mix as I am not sure whats going on with the paint without seeing it in person...when you get there, do a test section with either the hood or fender (preferably the hood as its in worse condition) and show him that difference! If he wants to proceed, then knock it out in a couple hours. If not, its up to you on how to deal with an unsatisfied customer.
 
Here is my guess:



The truck was in poor condition. Most of the swirling and visible marks were dirty or invisible to the naked eye.

When you used ISA you really pulled out all the material hiding the swirls.

When you went and polished the truck you brought up the clear coat and with the Meg's once again hid the swirls.

The truck was really shiny so it looked good and he has never really seen it clean. So when he did see it clean void of all contaminants he thought this swirling couldn't have been there before. So what he got was the truck he had originally just clean?



My experience w/clearcoat failure is that is very recognizable from the outset. If you need combinations to take out the swirls let me know. I just can't get a great look at the pictures
 
Scottwax said:
You polished paint suffering from clear coat failure. That only makes it worse. When I run across it, I let the customer know that the vehicle is beyond a detailing solution.



I guess now you know, eh? We all find out stuff the hard way, you are definitely not alone.
Click to expand...



I agree with Scott, with paint failure most every time it get buffed on it seems to almost highlight the paint that is failing and it always looks worse afterwards.



His truck is beyond repair, I think if you go back and redo it, it will end up looking even worse then it does now and he's going to blame you even more.



You need to explain this to him before you touch it again.



Josh
 
Guys/ Gals. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the input and advice. I apologize for the pictures being a bit small even once you click on them. It was a definitely time consuming to host them one by one through ImageShack.



I will definitely be having customers sign a form from now on like mentioned previously. I am definitely more aware now of what is recoverable and what is to far gone.



JoshVette, ScottWax, and all the others that put in on this I definitely look up to you all as detailers and thank you for your advice. I will be sure to keep the post updated and I will probably do a little write up just to share my findings and experience.
 
Twinscroll,



I hv encountered your experience many times before.

To avoid this in the future, this is what I do for neglected cars with "suspicious"/questionable paint.



1. I always ask if its OEM paint or aftermarket re-sprayed. Are there any touched up panels? If the touched up panel/s are badly done, you'll need to spend more time on correction ($$$$).



2. I always insist to wash properly first, park under the powerful whitelight in my shop and then give a recommendation and pricing to the customer. This is to avoid under/overcharging or commiting to an impossible job.



Many customers either genuinely do not know, or pretend not to know, that their paintjobs are crappy. Perhaps due to ignorance, they always hope that a simple polish and wax job can make their crappy paint look good again.



For my shop, sanding and extensive compounding are often necessary because my customers are the type who don't know anything about quality re-spray jobs....but they certainly know about nice glossy paintjobs that they see in magazines and websites....and drool over them.



In your case, I feel you shd have simply rejected the vehicle, telling the owner that his paint is dying. I always do this, and my customers appreciate that.

Since you only used a PC, then you certainly did not damage his paint, and I feel you're not responsible. You merely made his ailing paint more noticeable.

It's just that your diagnosis was not accurate enough for you to reject his car.
 
Tyler,



Your attitude and professionalism is what will win customers over; more so than

your skill. I'm fairly sure that the owner of this truck knows the paint is failing

and a repaint is inevitable. But given the condition, market value, and the mere

fact that it's a work truck, a "decent" refinish is not likely to happen...



Maybe i'm not seeing it, but there doesn't seem to be an article or sticky

dealing with paint conditions (with pics).
 
Flashtime said:
Tyler,



Your attitude and professionalism is what will win customers over; more so than

your skill. I'm fairly sure that the owner of this truck knows the paint is failing

and a repaint is inevitable. But given the condition, market value, and the mere

fact that it's a work truck, a "decent" refinish is not likely to happen...



Maybe i'm not seeing it, but there doesn't seem to be an article or sticky

dealing with paint conditions (with pics).
Click to expand...



Flashtime, well I can definitely contribute pictures and my knowledge is constantly growing. I appreciate your kind words and definitely think there should be an experimental section on judging and evaluating paint. There should definitely be a huge disclaimer on this section just to let people know that no advice given here is 100% guaranteed. It's very situational. What do you think?



I actually just got off the phone with the customer and he is not upset at all really. He let me know that if it were anyone else then he would be pretty pissed but that since I am his friend from high school and he's done similar (he owns his own lawn mowing business...so rocks through windows etc).



What the customer is interested in is judging by the pictures what happens now. He does park the truck outside and is wondering since the polish sped things up so much, in its given state, how much longer does it have until things start rusting. He really just wants to have protection on the vehicle and wanted me to learn from the mistake which is understandable.



So what does he need to do or can he do? With the paint in it's current condition, if the sun starts beating away at it, will it start rusting and how long does he have left before it does start rusting. It is a work truck for him and he basically just wants protection on the vehicle. And since it is the roof he is not too concerned with aesthetics.



What he is going to do is give his buddy at a local body shop a shout to see if he could just spray some primer on it. I, in my head, wouldn't suggest this. But if his main concern is just to slow down the failure and prevent rusting in the future then i don't see why not. I told the customer that I could go half and half if he decided to get the roof resprayed. The reason I am willing to go half and half is that I was a aid in causing the damage but a fair amount of the damage had already been done. Ahhh we learn from our mistakes!



Thank you for reading and let me know if you all have any answers to the questions:



1. So what does he need to do or can he do?

2. Given the current condition of the paint (see page 1) how long does he have before things start rusting?

3. How much would a respray cost just to provide protection.
 
He needs a repaint. Plain and simple.



A cheap reshoot will run around $500, factory level repaint would be in the $3000 range.



If any of the vocational schools in the area have paint and body classes, he could take one and learn how to paint it or see if they need a class project.
 
Did you remind your customer that his car is a "toilet"? A simple wax job even with a P.C. is a maintainance service. He needs full paint correction if that's even possible on the paint, it's difficult to see by the pictures. GM paint is hard and thin, you don't really want to hammer on it too hard anyways. Before you took the job I would have told him that he needs a respray. If he doesn't want to spend ten grand you can band aid it with a full paint correction.





John
 
Prices vary a lot. And for that hood and roof, i'd charge around $1500.

Like pics, the dollar amount means very little. However, too low of a price

is not a good sign either. Basically, i'd sand it down, prime and paint.

As for rusting issues, less than a year.



Same situation here:

View topic - Best way to fix this cc problem?



Flashtime = Han :)



There should definitely be a huge disclaimer on this section just to let people know that no advice given here is 100% guaranteed. It's very situational. What do you think?
Click to expand...



Absolutely. Maybe the powers that be (mods) can make it happen. And, if other

experienced members can contribute to it, that would be good. Real good.
 
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