Connecting dots from clay to collinite. w/rotary

[Alexshimshimhae]

Ok so here's my current issue.

I have a white BMW, a silver lexus, and my brothers blue protege(this for all intents and purposes being my test car for obvious reasons)

EQUIPMENT

Now, I am currently using my Vector rotary polisher. (Unfortunately I can't afford the Flex right now--drooling for one though)

Main question

After reading through days worth of forums, I was wondering..for ROTARY (because it seems there are a ton that are orbital friendly, but not as many rotary friendly) after I wash/claybar, what do you recommend for a polish/cleaner?



Product issue

I think someone mentioned that a Menzerna product had polish/cleaning capabilities, but it appears alot aren't rotary friendly? also I'm looking at dodo juice but..I don't seem to see mention of this product all that often...(is it that using rotary for polish that bad or something?) Also, are the polish cleaning products all that good? or should i stick with separate products for each function? the other threads seem to kind of be hazy on it...

I'm using the Claybar kit from i think Meguiars claybar kit--Since I'm planning to use the Collinite 845 and 476, would it be ok to forgo the polishing and cleaning after claybar? (one of the threads seemed to be completely split on it)



Multistep?

Also, might I assume that I can get away with doing just one step polish? I noticed some people tend to do more than one? but is it safe to say it's because of bigger correction needs?



Current Purchase Plan

I intend to buy the LC CCS Gray and blue pads (7.5) with a 6inch hook and loop flexible backing plate.. is blue pointless to buy? and I was reading up on the forums about the problem with these pads failing only after a handful of uses...hoping DP Polish pad rejuvenator will clean them safely? any thoughts?



so far, haven't seen anything saying that using rotary to apply 915,845, or 476 was bad (but a little concerned because the autogeeks site make no mention of using rotary)



Cars Background

The BMW is white but starting to notice swirl--though nxt seems to have covered it up for the most part. It's street parked in NYC (brooklyn) streets so I figure the collinite would do it some good.(maybe 915 topped with 845?)



The Lexus is garage parked but the bumper has some gashes in the rear bumper because apparently people don't know how to park cars in a hospital parking lot... and someone keyed the left side of the car--but I'm not at a level to even attempt to fix that (figure for now maybe try to stop it from further damage?)



The Protege is blue and I'm probably going to practice my polish techniques on it (but i think i like the look on it the best--probably because it's the only car with a color I can really appreciate the depth in)

 

[Accumulator]

Ok so here's my current issue.

I have a white BMW, a silver lexus, and my brothers blue protege(this for all intents and purposes being my test car for obvious reasons)

Some BMWs have *VERY* hard clear and what works on a Mazda won't begin to make a dent on something really hard. Other BMWs aren't all that bad AFAIK, but will still be very different from the Mazda IMO.

EQUIPMENT

Now, I am currently using my Vector rotary polisher. (Unfortunately I can't afford the Flex right now--drooling for one though)

Main question

I can't imagine you'll be able to finish out via rotary without leaving holograms, but they might not be all that obvious on a white car. Seriously, that's just not a realistic expectation IMO. I'm no klutz with a rotary and *I* can't do it.

After reading through days worth of forums, I was wondering..for ROTARY (because it seems there are a ton that are orbital friendly, but not as many rotary friendly) after I wash/claybar, what do you recommend for a polish/cleaner?



Product issue

I think someone mentioned that a Menzerna product had polish/cleaning capabilities, but it appears alot aren't rotary friendly? also I'm looking at dodo juice but..I don't seem to see mention of this product all that often...(is it that using rotary for polish that bad or something?) Also, are the polish cleaning products all that good? or should i stick with separate products for each function? the other threads seem to kind of be hazy on it...

Need to clarify here- what do you mean by "cleaner"? The clay oughta remove above-surface contamination, and *generally* these days the rotary work is more for leveling/smoothing/glossing the paint than it is for "cleaning". But different people use different terms differently...

I'm using the Claybar kit from i think Meguiars claybar kit--Since I'm planning to use the Collinite 845 and 476, would it be ok to forgo the polishing and cleaning after claybar? (one of the threads seemed to be completely split on it)

The clay will only remove above-surface contamination. It won't clean the pores of the paint (if that's necessary) and most important it won't level the paint, that is, remove marring (scratches/swirls/etc.).

Multistep?

Also, might I assume that I can get away with doing just one step polish? I noticed some people tend to do more than one? but is it safe to say it's because of bigger correction needs?

Generally speaking multi-step polishing is almost always required, but it depends on how particular you are.

Current Purchase Plan

I intend to buy the LC CCS Gray and blue pads (7.5) with a 6inch hook and loop flexible backing plate.. is blue pointless to buy? and I was reading up on the forums about the problem with these pads failing only after a handful of uses...hoping DP Polish pad rejuvenator will clean them safely? any thoughts?

The CCS pads aren't popular with some people. IMO gray and blue are too similar and neither is aggressive enough for doing much except final polishing and LSP application.

so far, haven't seen anything saying that using rotary to apply 915,845, or 476 was bad (but a little concerned because the autogeeks site make no mention of using rotary)

While some people do it, I wouldn't recommend that. I'd just do them by hand. You might instill holograms (yeah, even with nonabrasive waxes, the pad can do it) and be back at square-one.

Cars Background

The BMW is white but starting to notice swirl--though nxt seems to have covered it up for the most part. It's street parked in NYC (brooklyn) streets so I figure the collinite would do it some good.(maybe 915 topped with 845?)



The Lexus is garage parked but the bumper has some gashes in the rear bumper because apparently people don't know how to park cars in a hospital parking lot... and someone keyed the left side of the car--but I'm not at a level to even attempt to fix that (figure for now maybe try to stop it from further damage?)



The Protege is blue and I'm probably going to practice my polish techniques on it (but i think i like the look on it the best--probably because it's the only car with a color I can really appreciate the depth in)

The BMWs marring will be more obvious with something other than NXT on it.



For the Lexus, polish the bad spots to smooth them out and then just keep it washed and waxed (yeah, the Collinite is a good choice).



The Mazda will be the most demanding due to the color and should be an OK learning subject, but remember that its paint will probably correct easier than the BMW's.



While it's easy for me to spend your money, I can't help but think "oh sheesh, just buy some random orbital to use after the rotary". Seriously, I'd give it some thought because I'm not overstating how hard it is to get the final polishing right via rotary.

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

OK First thing's first

Ok I'm sure this is ganna sound totally lame and ridiculous, but Accum, thanks a ton for posting; I feel kinda honored.



In terms for clearcoats and such, it I have already weighed in the factor, and after reading the almost 250 posts on the rotary thread, i figured the Mazda would be a good car to test out my actual technique with the machine.



reason for sealant/lsp selection

Essentially, I mean, I just want to ensure that I get the optimal effectiveness out of my sealants and lsps. I mean I think the reason I'm partial to using collinite was (actually accum it very well might have been you) someone compared i think griots nxt and collinite--and collinite's beading was insane long after the other two stopped. I'm and DEFINITELY open to suggestions though esp since I lately reading some posts...I really don't see collinite being mentioned on forums...



Cleaning?

So as far as CLEANING goes--I read that oils and stuff from previous sealant/waxes and all that interfere with the effectiveness of the work you put in on your next detail so I'm just trying to cover my bases.



TBH, I've resorted to doing most of my work by hand(mainly cause A)I'm a rotary newbie at best and b) I know I don't have the proper pads/products so using it right now is ludicrous esp on good cars) but I figured if I wanted to step up the quality of the detail, I would have to find an effective way to cut down on the time (plus I figured I might as well make use of this machine just sitting in my garage)



I'm somewhat ashamed, but I feel like the swirls were probably my fault. The NXT doesn't seem to last nearly long enough (and i've only been using the liquid and paste) and so I'd find myself having to wax again and again because of all the crazy amounts of Sap/pollen/leaves/tar/etc like caking on the car every week.



Sooooo...I guess what I'm looking for in advice on what products to prep my car with what methods so I can get away with simple car washes and maybe a coat of wax once a month instead of having to take part in a 4 hour project per car a week.



From what I gathered--it seems I'll have to polish after claybar and then i guess fine polish? and then do some type of cleaning to wipe away whatever's left and then seal before getting my LSP on.

Polish - use orbital only or do by hand then?

OR

-rotary for first polish (M105 seems popular but someone said there's something better?) and the final polish (say M205) oribtal/hand?

Sealant/wax - orbital/hand only?

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

OK so, looking at the forums, I'm thinking caught between M105/M205 combo or the New Optimum Compound and Polish Spray.



What would you guys suggest? and what about pads then? I look for all my shopping on autogeek and they recommended the pinnacle paintwork cleansing lotion--worth getting?(was thinkin maybe they're just trying to sell product?)

I mean I read mentions that you should do some sort of cleaning between and after the correction/polish phases before sealants and LSP..suggestions?

 

[Accumulator]

OK so, looking at the forums, I'm thinking caught between M105/M205 combo or the New Optimum Compound and Polish Spray...

Both lines are good (if quite different) product choices, but I'm having trouble with the rotary-then-hand approach. IMO you'll end up with nasty rotary holograms that will be too much to fix by hand.



IN YOUR SITUATION, I myself would *not* use the rotary period. I'd sell it and apply the money towards a random orbital, doing stuff by hand in the meantime. Yeah, others would do different, but that's what *I* would do in your place.



By hand, I'd probably use 1Z Paint Polish (some correction, some filling) topped with Collinite and I'd wait until I had a good RO polisher before I aimed for better results.

I look for all my shopping on autogeek and they recommended the pinnacle paintwork cleansing lotion--worth getting?(was thinkin maybe they're just trying to sell product?)

Pinnacle PCL is a decent paint cleaner that leaves some glaze-like stuff behind. While I've used a lot of it over the years, I don't think it fits your needs.

I mean I read mentions that you should do some sort of cleaning between and after the correction/polish phases before sealants and LSP..suggestions?

There are various reasons for doing that (and for not doing it), but the PCL isn't made for that kind of cleaning. At this point, I myself don't think you need to worry about that cleaning step anyhow.



Think long-term, get a good random orbital and *then* ramp up the quality of your end-result.





Again, others with vastly different opinions will see this very differently, I'm just imagining what I'd do if I were in your shoes.

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

again sir, I'm ever grateful for your words of wisdom. (sigh i really wish my boss actually taught me more instead of being paranoid that we'd steal business..)



Yea, for the most part, I've been thinking about letting go of the notion that I should try using the rotary. I mean I was eager to use it at first because of the time savings and people saying that rotary was ideal for corrections and polishes...but I'm thinking--maybe rotary age is coming to the end and I'm being ambitious? ionno.





So for now then, I suppose, 1Z (pad choices?, soooo i should keep it to one step then?) and leave the 105/205 and sprays out of the equation?



Sooo as of now I guess my order is Hose down, claybar, 1Z by hand/mf off(I assume this step alone will take me an hour then?), collinite 915,845, 476?



I guess part of the reason i was leaning towards the 105/205 aside from everyone seeming to use it--autogeek also had a flex package with it xD...but when I get the flex--would your suggestions for product change sir?

 

[Accumulator]

Yea, for the most part, I've been thinking about letting go of the notion that I should try using the rotary. I mean I was eager to use it at first because of the time savings and people saying that rotary was ideal for corrections and polishes...but I'm thinking--maybe rotary age is coming to the end and I'm being ambitious? ionno...

I wouldn't go that far, but there's a definite learning curve and *in most cases* I think you can get by fine without it. Why spend forever mastering something that's not all that necessary? FWIW, I hardly ever use mine any more, and when I do its for stuff that's borderline ill-advised (rocks-in-a-bottle compounds, etc.).



Others *love* their rotaries, for all kinds of work from aggressive to jeweling, but they've mastered them. I won't ever do enough work with mine to ever get that good (note that I've used mine pretty much and I'm nobody's idea of a klutz) and I simply don't *need* to use the rotary-centric approach anyhow.

So for now then, I suppose, 1Z (pad choices?, soooo i should keep it to one step then?) and leave the 105/205 and sprays out of the equation?

If doing it by hand I'd probably just use cotton terry, maybe followed by MF. Eh, I'm not the best guy to ask as I do most everything by machine, but by hand I seldom use foam pads. That's just me though...



The 1Z Paint Polish is a medium-strength abrasive that also leaves wax/etc. behind. It'll do some light correction and some concealing. You might oughta get some Meguiar's Ultimate Compound to use on bad spots first.

Sooo as of now I guess my order is Hose down, claybar, 1Z by hand/mf off(I assume this step alone will take me an hour then?), collinite 915,845, 476?

I kinda prefer the 476S, but 845 is nice (and trim-friendly). Never tried 915.

I guess part of the reason i was leaning towards the 105/205 aside from everyone seeming to use it--autogeek also had a flex package with it xD...but when I get the flex--would your suggestions for product change sir?

I simply *LOVE* my Flex 3401. With that I'd use either the M105/M205 or the Optimum spray stuff. You could still use the 1Z for one-steps.



I want to be perfectly clear that the 1Z PP + Collinite is kinda a half-@$$ed approach by Autopian standards. But it's also pretty doable by hand. You could use Meguiar's M80 instead, but I'd go with the 1Z.



If there's any way you can swing the cost of the Flex 3401, or the Griot's 6" Random Orbital, I'd buy the polisher. Money well-spent IMO, but it's easy for me to empty somebody else's wallet

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

I doubt I'll get to sell the vector...but Definitely shooting for the flex 3401--not going to buy the lightweight edition cause ...well...i'd rather have the weight do the work for me xD



I hear people like to make collinite sandwiches which is why I've been kind of picking up all three--the 915 seems to be the better protectant--and since the protege is softer--I'll start with that? but i figure 915 once a year(not sure if i want it for winterizing--or for the post winter...) and then the 476 maybe quarterly and the 845 maybe monthly or bimonthly?



If that's half-fast, any pointers? I mean I stated the reason for collinite--and honestly I picked it because I figured it was better to kind of have something to compare it to(if anyone had any other suggestions)



Again, I'm DEFINITELY eager to pick up the Flex, but generally speaking, for polish (I assume for the megs and the optimum, you'd use diff types of pads) and for sealant/lsp, which pads are you partial to? With a bunch of people complained that the LK ccs pads fail big time, I'm not sure what I should resort to.



As always, Accum sit you've been enormous help. Thank you

 

[Accumulator]

I doubt I'll get to sell the vector...but Definitely shooting for the flex 3401--not going to buy the lightweight edition cause ...well...i'd rather have the weight do the work for me xD

Then you can do the aggressive work with the rotary if called for, and follow up with the Flex/etc. That works well.

I hear people like to make collinite sandwiches which is why I've been kind of picking up all three--the 915 seems to be the better protectant--and since the protege is softer--I'll start with that? but i figure 915 once a year(not sure if i want it for winterizing--or for the post winter...) and then the 476 maybe quarterly and the 845 maybe monthly or bimonthly?

The sandwich that I do is 845/476s/845 and then I redo the 845 as needed. Quick and easy. It's my understanding (from the guys at Collinite) that the 476s (AKA 885) is more durable than the 915, which is sorta their "beauty wax", with a higher % of carnauba as opposed to the synthetic ingredients that make 476s so durable. But you won't go wrong with any of them IMO.

If that's half-fast, any pointers? I mean I stated the reason for collinite--and honestly I picked it because I figured it was better to kind of have something to compare it to(if anyone had any other suggestions)

The compromise is in the polishing step. Doing one step with 1Z PP just isn't as good as doing multiple steps with other products, but it's OK when that's all you'll be doing. It's a question of how involved you want to/can get.

Again, I'm DEFINITELY eager to pick up the Flex, but generally speaking, for polish (I assume for the megs and the optimum, you'd use diff types of pads) and for sealant/lsp, which pads are you partial to? With a bunch of people complained that the LK ccs pads fail big time, I'm not sure what I should resort to.

I'm not the best guy to ask as I just use the pads I've had around for ages. But I'd lean towards the LC HydroTech line and suggest you look into those. I use, and like, the similar Griot's pads when I use my Flex. It's a pretty simple product line to figure out as they only make three HydroTech pads. Then use the Gold LC pad for LSP application.



Oh, and glad to be helpful.

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

whew,

On my way to pick up my car from the shop, I was thinking that maybe by the end of all this I'll have some kind of comprehensive guide made up--and it occured to me--that I'd pretty much be taking your wisdom and putting it down for you =D.



You Sir, are a nobleman and a scholar I applaud you.

 

[Accumulator]

Heh heh, glad to help.

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

oh btw--how long do you give the car in between coats to cure?--and do you just do a quick wash with say like GC and quick dry before you put on the next coat? (cars will probably be left outside to cure--iunless that's really bad?)

 

[Accumulator]

Alexshimshimhae- I don't pull 'em outside for fear of contamination, but guys like Scottwax do it all the time...just depends on your area.



Multiple coats of Collinite can be tricky...is that what you're asking about?

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

yessir. I mean the problem with NYC is that leaving it outside is as good an idea as trying to walk through a battle field wearing white (expecting to stay clean) I WAS playing with the idea of covering the car...but then worried it wont cure properly?



And i THINK someone said 476 needed like 8 hours to cure? so i figured 476-8hrs, 845-8hours, 476?

 

[Accumulator]

And i THINK someone said 476 needed like 8 hours to cure? so i figured 476-8hrs, 845-8hours, 476?

I bet the 845 requires some curing time too, but to be honest I never worry all that much about it with these products. I wait when I can, as long as I can, but I just get it done. Never noticed a dramatic diff :nixweiss



I *do* wait with regard to trying to "layer" 476S. I've had some really nasty pseudo-holograms that convinced me to not even *try* layering that stuff any more, or at least not apply another coat until after the next regularly scheduled wash.

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

I bet the 845 requires some curing time too, but to be honest I never worry all that much about it with these products. I wait when I can, as long as I can, but I just get it done. Never noticed a dramatic diff :nixweiss



I *do* wait with regard to trying to "layer" 476S. I've had some really nasty pseudo-holograms that convinced me to not even *try* layering that stuff any more, or at least not apply another coat until after the next regularly scheduled wash.

sooo 476s wait a few days, reg car wash, 845, wait an hour if i can and top with 476s?

 

[Accumulator]

sooo 476s wait a few days, reg car wash, 845, wait an hour if i can and top with 476s?

No. Do one coat of 845 and top with 476S. Then *I* wouldn't add more 476S, just 845 if/when you think it's called for. Doing multiple applications of 476S is what *sometimes* leads to issues. (Not always, but you don't want to deal with it.)

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

soooo 845 is more of the sealant? Sorry this must be getting aggravating for you.

I though that 476 was more of a sealant--so I thought it was supposed to go on first.

or would you suggest a different sealant all together?

 

[Accumulator]

soooo 845 is more of the sealant? Sorry this must be getting aggravating for you.

I though that 476 was more of a sealant--so I thought it was supposed to go on first.

or would you suggest a different sealant all together?

I'd quit thinking of this in terms of wax vs. sealant. Rather, it's just two products that work OK together.



I can't give you a great reason why (except for lessened build-up around tape/pinstripes/emblems/etc.), but I just *like* using the 845 before laying down a coat of 476S. Seems to make the whole thing go better and easier, even though it's kinda an extra step.



The only thing that's really significant IMO is avoiding any pseudo-holograms from trying to layer 476S. And it's not like that always happens either.

 

[Alexshimshimhae]

ahh..and any idea on how long it'll bead on average? (or how long the protection lasts)