Can you "flush" dirt with a rinseless wash?

[DetailZeus]

Let me see if I can explain this:

When you use microfiber towels with a rinseless wash, I feel like most of the dirt is grabbed and picked up by the towel, which is why it's so important to be constantly exposing new sides of the towel.

However if you used a sponge, or microfiber sponge (Bone, LC sponge, incredisponge, etc.) could you potentially slowly squeeze the sponge as you wash, flushing away dirt, instead of just grabbing it?

Good idea? Or just in theory, but not practice? I don't own any sponges but I do have microfiber towels (gdwm) and Meguiar's wash mitts (2 bucket method). I find the meguiar's mitt looks especially trashed after a rinseless, even with frequent scrubbing on the grit guard, which tells me most of the wash is being accomplished by picking up dirt.

 

[pheerix]

Get a 1 or 2 gallon garden sprayer and fill it with Rinseless solution and use it to pre-rinse and pre-soak before the wash. I do this with the GDWM and I use an extraneous amount of towels (12).

 

[Accumulator]

DetailZeus- Others here are more knowledgeable about rinseless washes than I am and have far more experience with them, though I do use Garry Dean's Infinite Use Detail Juice (and to a far lesser extent Optimum No Rinse). But you mentioned "flushing away the dirt", which is central to how I wash, so I thought I'd reply. See how the following compares to what others post.

IME you'd have to *really* saturate your wash medium with rinseless in order to get an effective flushing effect. And the pressure/force with which the rinseless would be applied to the dirt wouldn't be sufficient to do much flushing even if your LSP (Last Step Product, i.e., wax) is one that readily releases dirt.

I can see it working OK *if* you used a lot of rinseless and were only cleaning light dust off a well-LSPed vehicle, but otherwise *IMO* you need some mechanical agitation to break the dirt-to-paint bond and, as you pointed out, the general way that rinseless washes work is by getting the dirt to transfer to (and be retained by) the wash medium.

Now if you want to discuss "flushing the dirt away" in the context of conventional washing (as opposed to rinseless), then I just might be the guy to ask I employ a "dislodge and flush" approach and then often follow up with a rinseless, which functions primarily as a drying aid. I won't say that what I do is the *best* way to wash, but I'm able to clean very dirty vehicles without causing an appreciable amount of wash-induced marring; I basically never have to polish my vehicles despite being very particular that they be marring-free.

 

[Accumulator]

Get a 1 or 2 gallon garden sprayer and fill it with Rinseless solution and use it to pre-rinse and pre-soak before the wash. I do this with the GDWM and I use an extraneous amount of towels (12).

IMO that's good advice no matter what. I do that even when the rinseless is merely a drying aid. The 1-2 gallon size seems ideal.

 

[Migue]

That's exactly what i do, i have a 1 gallon garden sprayer from HD with my rinseless mixture ready to go in it and pre-soak the entire vehicle with it before starting the rinseless wash.

 

[silverfox]

Can you "flush" dirt with a rinseless wash?

That's exactly what happens with the MF madness incredisponge. It actually flushes water away from the media as you wipe. Since using it I've never touched my paint with a MF towel doing rinseless.
In fact I use a very damp MF incredipad as a second wipe media for the final wipe.

 

[JustJesus]

However if you used a sponge, or microfiber sponge (Bone, LC sponge, incredisponge, etc.) could you potentially slowly squeeze the sponge as you wash, flushing away dirt, instead of just grabbing it?

Good idea? Or just in theory, but not practice?...I find the meguiar's mitt looks especially trashed after a rinseless, even with frequent scrubbing on the grit guard...

If I understand you correctly, then I would answer, "sort of" - you might be able to have *some* flushing away, but at the expense of using way more product. To *me*, that partially defeats the purpose of rinseless. I also believe you wont get the more embedded crud with that type of flush method.

DetailZeus- Others here are more knowledgeable about rinseless washes than I am and have far more experience with them, though I do use Garry Dean's Infinite Use Detail Juice (and to a far lesser extent Optimum No Rinse).
...
I can see it working OK *if* you used a lot of rinseless and were only cleaning light dust off a well-LSPed vehicle, but otherwise *IMO* you need some mechanical agitation to break the dirt-to-paint bond and, as you pointed out, the general way that rinseless washes work is by getting the dirt to transfer to (and be retained by) the wash medium.

That's where I defer from Mr. Accumulator. I have the Infinite Use Detail Juice, but rarely use it. I use mainly ONR, due to low cost/high value, and I get results that I'm happy with (as well as vehicle owners). Don't get me wrong, Detail Juice is great, but like the fine China, it's reserved for special occasions

I agree with him on that other part, about using a lot of rinseless. I think it seems to come down to how dirty the vehicle is, as well as how protected (LSP) it is. One thing for sure is this: YMMV - Experiment. Try it out and see. It may work for you. An example is your use of the Megs wash mitt. Sounds like you didn't have a great experience with it, where I actually did. I did my first rinseless with one (or two). Loved it. So much that I kept ordering them! I have about six of them now! I use them for regular washes, when I'm not doing rinseless (with multiple MF towels)

 

[DetailZeus]

DetailZeus- Others here are more knowledgeable about rinseless washes than I am and have far more experience with them, though I do use Garry Dean's Infinite Use Detail Juice (and to a far lesser extent Optimum No Rinse). But you mentioned "flushing away the dirt", which is central to how I wash, so I thought I'd reply. See how the following compares to what others post.

IME you'd have to *really* saturate your wash medium with rinseless in order to get an effective flushing effect. And the pressure/force with which the rinseless would be applied to the dirt wouldn't be sufficient to do much flushing even if your LSP (Last Step Product, i.e., wax) is one that readily releases dirt.

I can see it working OK *if* you used a lot of rinseless and were only cleaning light dust off a well-LSPed vehicle, but otherwise *IMO* you need some mechanical agitation to break the dirt-to-paint bond and, as you pointed out, the general way that rinseless washes work is by getting the dirt to transfer to (and be retained by) the wash medium.

Now if you want to discuss "flushing the dirt away" in the context of conventional washing (as opposed to rinseless), then I just might be the guy to ask I employ a "dislodge and flush" approach and then often follow up with a rinseless, which functions primarily as a drying aid. I won't say that what I do is the *best* way to wash, but I'm able to clean very dirty vehicles without causing an appreciable amount of wash-induced marring; I basically never have to polish my vehicles despite being very particular that they be marring-free.

Accumulator,

Thanks for the reply. I actually came across some of your old posts a year or so ago when I just started to get into detailing. IIRC, your method involved a lot of things, but the part that separated it from "traditional" washing was lightly using a boar's hair brush and foam gun to flush away dirt, correct?

I actually watched Larry Kosilla's video on the black R8 around the same time where he does something similar but with a wool wash mitt. I tried this myself but landed up whacking the car with the hose a few too many times and I guess I gave up. Might have been able to master it with more practice.

Between those videos and you guys here I more or less learned the basic concepts of removing dirt from paint. I mean my first wash on my poor black coupe was with a kmart sponge, gold class, one bucket, and lots of circles :blink:.

Anyways, yeah your "dislodge and flush" concept is part of how i though of this sponge thing

Thanks!

 

[DetailZeus]

Get a 1 or 2 gallon garden sprayer and fill it with Rinseless solution and use it to pre-rinse and pre-soak before the wash. I do this with the GDWM and I use an extraneous amount of towels (12).

I absolutely do this too, if I'm not hosing the car off first. I've got a 2 gallon garden sprayer filled with wash strength rinseless mix.

 

[DetailZeus]

Re: Can you "flush" dirt with a rinseless wash?

That's exactly what happens with the MF madness incredisponge. It actually flushes water away from the media as you wipe. Since using it I've never touched my paint with a MF towel doing rinseless.
In fact I use a very damp MF incredipad as a second wipe media for the final wipe.

See, that's what I was thinking. Whenever I see a video of someone washing with a grout sponge or something, there's always a decent amount of solution pouring down the paint. I just don't like using a bare sponge, since I've a bad (read:swirly) experience with them (although my technique was horrible at the time)

If your incredisponge could "dislodge" the dirt with its microfiber, then "flush" with a little squeeze, it could be a nice combo.

 

[DetailZeus]

If I understand you correctly, then I would answer, "sort of" - you might be able to have *some* flushing away, but at the expense of using way more product. To *me*, that partially defeats the purpose of rinseless. I also believe you wont get the more embedded crud with that type of flush method.



That's where I defer from Mr. Accumulator. I have the Infinite Use Detail Juice, but rarely use it. I use mainly ONR, due to low cost/high value, and I get results that I'm happy with (as well as vehicle owners). Don't get me wrong, Detail Juice is great, but like the fine China, it's reserved for special occasions

I agree with him on that other part, about using a lot of rinseless. I think it seems to come down to how dirty the vehicle is, as well as how protected (LSP) it is. One thing for sure is this: YMMV - Experiment. Try it out and see. It may work for you. An example is your use of the Megs wash mitt. Sounds like you didn't have a great experience with it, where I actually did. I did my first rinseless with one (or two). Loved it. So much that I kept ordering them! I have about six of them now! I use them for regular washes, when I'm not doing rinseless (with multiple MF towels)

Thanks for the reply. Oddly enough my reasons for using rinseless don't revolve around saving water. It's mostly so I can wash my black car in the middle of the day, and i also have hard water. I kinda bought into the rinseless "hype" but landed up liking the products. I started with IUDJ, am using Adam's right now, and have Wolfgang on deck.

My "basic wash" method is to do wheels traditionally with soap and brushes, rinse the whole car down with the hose, and pull it into the garage. From there I spray dirtier spots quick detail strength rinseless (behind the wheels and such), and do the GDWM with soaking 600 gsm towels. Finally dry with a waffle weave. I do about 3 panels at a time before drying.

My "lazy method" is to just soak the car down with the garden sprayer in the garage, do the same GDWM, adding a wipe of just wheel faces with some wheel microfibers. I know I shouldn't do this too much since it's riskier. But I more or less wash the car every week in the spring/summer/fall and I don't always feel like pulling out the hose if it hasn't rained.

I actually got the meg's mitt recently, and thought it cleaned up fine when I did a regular soapy 2bm. It's only with the rinseless it stayed gunky. I could just buy more but i already have 10 expensive towels. It did give me better control than how my towel feels like dragging around a small waterlogged mammal.

 

[ShaneB]

You may want to try a different rinseless wash. I have found that Megs D114 releases dirt from your wash media extremely well. UWW+ ive found doesn't release well, as well as ONR. Havent tried any others though.

Either that or just use a bunch of microfiber towels and change them out as they pickup dirt (1 towel per panel or two)

 

[Accumulator]

Re: Can you "flush" dirt with a rinseless wash?

..[The flushing with a rinseless is].. exactly what happens with the MF madness incredisponge. It actually flushes water away from the media as you wipe. Since using it I've never touched my paint with a MF towel doing rinseless.
In fact I use a very damp MF incredipad as a second wipe media for the final wipe.

Ah, so it *can* work! I *am* assuming a couple things- well-LSPed and not too dirty, but OK, glad to hear it's a viable approach (yep, I'll absolutely defer to your experience).

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator,

Thanks for the reply. I actually came across some of your old posts a year or so ago when I just started to get into detailing. IIRC, your method involved a lot of things, but the part that separated it from "traditional" washing was lightly using a boar's hair brush and foam gun to flush away dirt, correct?

Right.

I actually watched Larry Kosilla's video on the black R8 around the same time where he does something similar but with a wool wash mitt...

Noting that I haven't seen that video...that's what I do for the second step, after having used the BHB to get the "big stuff" off.

I tried this myself but landed up whacking the car with the hose a few too many times and I guess I gave up. Might have been able to master it with more practice.

Yeah, it absolutely does (at least IME) take some practice! Seems like I'm *still* refining the process. It was worth mastering *for me* (and I generally don't struggle to master detailing products/approaches), but it's not gonna be right for everybody.

Having the right accessories can help immensely IME. Replacing the pistol grip on the foamgun with a shutoff you can operate with your thumb was a *huge* improvement for me.

Between those videos and you guys here I more or less learned the basic concepts of removing dirt from paint. I mean my first wash on my poor black coupe was with a kmart sponge, gold class, one bucket, and lots of circles :blink:.

Heh heh, I'm sure things are working out a lot better now!

Anyways, yeah your "dislodge and flush" concept is part of how i though of this sponge thing

Looks like there are a few ways to do the "dislodge and flush". I *do* still think that doing that is better than focusing on the "transfer the dirt to the wash medium" approach, but again that's just me.

My "basic wash" method is to do wheels traditionally with soap and brushes, rinse the whole car down with the hose, and pull it into the garage. From there I spray dirtier spots quick detail strength rinseless (behind the wheels and such), and do the GDWM with soaking 600 gsm towels. Finally dry with a waffle weave. I do about 3 panels at a time before drying.

I do the wheels conventionally too but then mine can get really *awful* between washes, especially in the barrels and on the back sides of the spokes. Plus, it seems like I always need to flush out the wheelwells anyhow.

I'd dry with a plush MF Drying Towel instead of the WW as IMO it makes for a better chance of an residual dirt getting "caught up in the MF nap and away from the paint". Others believe that the "pockets" of a WW will accomplish the same thing, I just don't see it that way.

I started with IUDJ, am using Adam's right now, and have Wolfgang on deck.

Interesting that you didn't stick with the IUDJ. You like the others better?

...[sometimes it]..feels like dragging around a small waterlogged mammal

Heh heh, that'd be me when I have my sheepskin mitt full of shampoo mix and I'm whisking it across the panels

I more or less wash the car every week in the spring/summer/fall..

Doing it that often, you oughta be OK if your LSP sheds dirt readily. Just avoid pressing hard (no matter what method you're using), avoid any long, sweeping motions, and don't let something that's soiled keep touching your paint (i.e., use all those MFs .

 

[DetailZeus]

...Replacing the pistol grip on the foamgun with a shutoff you can operate with your thumb was a *huge* improvement for me.

Ah, I think I have one of those in the garage somewhere. I will definitively try that. The gun is just clunky and the arm angle is awkward when trying wear a mitt on your other hand and wash.

Looks like there are a few ways to do the "dislodge and flush". I *do* still think that doing that is better than focusing on the "transfer the dirt to the wash medium" approach, but again that's just me.

I've even thought of using the LC wash wedge like an aggressive version of a boar's hair brush! Maybe someone who owns one would want to experiment haha.

I'd dry with a plush MF Drying Towel instead of the WW as IMO it makes for a better chance of an residual dirt getting "caught up in the MF nap and away from the paint". Others believe that the "pockets" of a WW will accomplish the same thing, I just don't see it that way.

Do you dampen it before drying? I find my 600 gsm plush towels really just push around water when they're dry. They're better damp but leave little streaks I still have to deal with.[/QUOTE]

Interesting that you didn't stick with the IUDJ. You like the others better?

Actually, no. I just have a gallon of the Adam's to use, and only had a little bottle of IUDJ. They clean equally well but the Adam's is a little harder to wipe dry in cooler temps, I think due to the carnauba in it. It's noticeable when I'm wiping out my door jambs. I haven't opened the Wolfgang yet.

What's your use for IUDJ right now? Do you do the GDWM as your last washing step or just use it as a drying aid?

Doing it that often, you oughta be OK if your LSP sheds dirt readily. Just avoid pressing hard (no matter what method you're using), avoid any long, sweeping motions, and don't let something that's soiled keep touching your paint (i.e., use all those MFs .

Yeah I'm using Adam's paint sealant right now. I'll probably apply it 3 times this year. I know, lots of Adam's products: their product line just seemed simple when I was first upgrading from retail store stuff.

I think I've got the basics down now and am enjoying the process and trying new things. I just gotta be careful not to blow more money every time I get a new idea. Thanks for all your suggestions.

 

[Accumulator]

Ah, I think I have one of those [shutoffs] in the garage somewhere. I will definitively try that. The gun is just clunky and the arm angle is awkward..

Yeah, that awkward angle is why I first tried the shutoff. Makes all the diff IMO.

I've even thought of using the LC wash wedge like an aggressive version of a boar's hair brush! Maybe someone who owns one would want to experiment haha.

Ah, but here's the "but"- The way the BHB sheds dirt so readily makes it basically self-cleaning/rinsing, so the dislodged dirt gets flushed away better than with any othe type of wash media. That's why I use the BHB first *every* time and then follow up with the foamgun + mitt.

Do you dampen it before drying? I find my 600 gsm plush towels really just push around water when they're dry. They're better damp but leave little streaks I still have to deal with.

No, I use my Plush MF Drying Towels dry (and that's how I used WWMFs previously). Sounds like you need different MFs for drying.

..What's your use for IUDJ right now? Do you do the GDWM as your last washing step or just use it as a drying aid?

Sorta a combination of last wash step + drying aid. The vehicle is almost certainly clean by that point (pressure washer rinse, then BHB/foamgun, then mitt/foamgun) but I basically do a GDWM with the IUDJ anyhow after blowing off most of the water with my AirWand. I spray IUDJ on there, use a plush MF wet with IUDJ for a quick wipe (this leaves a good bit of IUDJ on the paint) and then dry with a plush MF Drying Towel.

I think I've got the basics down now and am enjoying the process and trying new things. I just gotta be careful not to blow more money every time I get a new idea. Thanks for all your suggestions.

Yeah, those "new ideas" can get expensive! I won't say that I actually *enjoy* any of this detailing stuff (do enjoy the end-result though ), but I do enjoy the challenge of figuring out the best approach (for me). Heh heh, I've been washing cars in the Nutty-Autopian sense since the '70s, yet I'm *still* finding ways to refine how I do it!