Are we ruining are paint?

P

paco

New member
Hey Everyone,



I finally got around to using 3M SMR on my GF Black Cavalier. Much better product I found than the #9 original (not version 2.0). Although, I have to kick it up a notch to the machine polish to remove some of the marks.



Is the Machine Polish similar to #2 Fine Cut by Meguiars? I have feeling it falls somewhere in between the #9 and #2.



Secondly, as I live in a building (for now) I don't have the luxury of being able to wash my car at home lately. So I used a local detail shop for a wash ($10). What a disappointment! The guys fills the wash bucket with soap and only rinses the mitt after 1/2 the car is scrubbed. Get this, he did 1/2 the hood then TIRES then front quarter, door bottom, door top, rear quarter then roof all without rinsing !!!!!!! :scared When I finally realized what happen I jumped into the back and yelled! The damage was done though! Never never never again. Drying... with dirty towels! Stay far far away from Fine Details. Bunch of hacks if you ask me. Sure the Meguiars... so what! I was then working on Lexus 400 and were buffing out some minor swirls. The pad was soo freakin dirty it actually created more swirls. The tech then said that the clear wasn't applied well that they should complain with the dealer :confused: .



I plan on going with Zaino in the spring once I get the paint condition in check.



Lastly, I have an IPOD that the plastic screen is a very little scratched. Is it alright to us the SMR on it? Or should I stick with something else. I would use Plexus but I don't plan on putting my order in for at least 1 week. What an order that will be!



1. Zaino (ZFX, Z2, Z5, Z6) (available locally)

2. 303

3. EH Powerwash+, Hi-Intensity, and one of the fabric cleaners

4. Meguiar's Gold Class shampoo

5. PPCL

6. Klasse (AIO, SG)

7. Blitz

8. Rubbermaid tubs for all the products :cool:





Boy do I miss not having a garage! That's the main reason I am looking at buying a house. Apartment/Condo living just sucks for detail buff!



Paco
 
Yes, I said it and I've said it before and I don't think there has ever been an honest discussion on the subject and frankly, I don't know enough so that is why I am asking the question.

So, anytime you are polishing your car, you are leveling the clear to some degree or removing some of the clear coat.

If I were to take a rotary and just leave it in one spot, I'd burn the paint, but I could probably remove enough clear coat in a hurry that I'd be down to the paint, right?

So, here is my concern...

Hacks like me work on our own cars and do the odd family member car or friends car. My concern is my own car.

I find myself polishing my cars about once a year. Usually I'm using M205 with a white pad so I am not being very aggressive and I'm doing it moreso as a "cleaner" rather than as a correction device.

My cars are silver and white, so you can't really see swirls on them, although I think I keep them in pretty good shape.

However, assuming all things are equal, I've got my car which (lets say) I polish once a year vs. my neighbor who has the exact same car that came of the same assembly line right after my car. His car is NEVER polished.

After 5 or 6 or 10 years... won't my car be a lot more susceptible to clear coat failure than his, because I will have removed a lot more clear than him by polishing every year?

Again, I want this to be an honest discussion and I'm not looking to put a downer on detailing, because I love doing it, but I do have my concerns.
 
User Name said:
Yes, I said it and I've said it before and I don't think there has ever been an honest discussion on the subject and frankly, I don't know enough so that is why I am asking the question.

So, anytime you are polishing your car, you are leveling the clear to some degree or removing some of the clear coat.

If I were to take a rotary and just leave it in one spot, I'd burn the paint, but I could probably remove enough clear coat in a hurry that I'd be down to the paint, right?

So, here is my concern...

Hacks like me work on our own cars and do the odd family member car or friends car. My concern is my own car.

I find myself polishing my cars about once a year. Usually I'm using M205 with a white pad so I am not being very aggressive and I'm doing it moreso as a "cleaner" rather than as a correction device.

My cars are silver and white, so you can't really see swirls on them, although I think I keep them in pretty good shape.

However, assuming all things are equal, I've got my car which (lets say) I polish once a year vs. my neighbor who has the exact same car that came of the same assembly line right after my car. His car is NEVER polished.

After 5 or 6 or 10 years... won't my car be a lot more susceptible to clear coat failure than his, because I will have removed a lot more clear than him by polishing every year?

Again, I want this to be an honest discussion and I'm not looking to put a downer on detailing, because I love doing it, but I do have my concerns.
Click to expand...


I've never owned, nor do I ever think I will ever own a vehicle long enough to find out. Plus most cars that old will have had some amount of body work done in the period of 5-10 years.

A light polish done once a year and I think you will be fine. Regular aggressive polishing and you will likely be in trouble.

Your neighbors car would still look like crap though....so pick your poison. :D
 
First off if your using a paint gauge then you can tell exactly how much you started with, what you took off and whats left so there is nothing left to chance. Not that you really need one if your only doing your own plus an additional family members car here and there.

If you dont have a paint gauge than you still really have little to worry about if your doing correction when and how you say you are. Thats such a non aggressive method of correction that at most your taking off very minimal if even calculable amounts of clear. If you car has a paint thickness of 5mils than you could be removing what, say .01 -.02mils each time, with that given method? Hardly something I would be concerned about, even over a 10 or 15 year lifespan of owning that car I dont see how that could prematurely cause any damage whatsoever.

Even if your paint is of a lesser thickness thanks for polishing dont you think your regular gentle washing, claying and waxing more than makes up for it? Seriously... your car probably never has etched bird droppings, water spots or contaminants sitting it on... your neighbors car however probably does. Over 15 years I think those things will end up causing more damage to the integrity and look of his finish compared to your gentle polishing.

Also how long could you have possibly been using M205 to carry out this procedure its only been around for about 2 years.
 
Yup, gotta agree that regular maintenance is the way to go. Interesting question, though...

If the paint is kept smooth and the oxidation is minimized, contamination is less apt to grab ahold compared to a rough surface. So, things that dissolve the paint in a hurry (often referred to as "etching" or "stains"), have less chance of resting upon that surface.

To some degree, a layer of oxidation is a protective barrier of sorts, and could minimize futire oxidation. Sooo... it could be reasonably argued that regular washing would keep contamination at bay, and a thin layer of oxidized paint would slow the formation of new oxidation, as would be the case if the car was regularly washed and polished but the applied wax or polymer was not replaced before it had depleted from the surface (thus exposing the unprotected and not yet oxidized paint to oxygen and other environmentally damaging substances).

The surface could even be clayed to keep it somewhat smooth, but I would certainly classify the claying in this case as a "polish", in that, the surface has been "smoothed" by a mechanical process. There's still going to be oxidation present, but the uppermost portion will be smooth.

The choice seems to be one that causes you to choose longevity of the paint life via diligent washing and no polishing and waxing, or diligent washing and regular polishing and waxing. This choice also means that if both methods were compared, one car may look fantastic yet feature a thinner paint film, while the other may look unsightly but feature thicker paint film.

Funny, but if a car is stored in a dry area (like a desert), kept out of direct sunlight, and does not gather lots of bird bombs (or bombs from bugs, bats, or other rodents), then the accumulated "dust" protects the paint pretty well. Stick the same car in a moist environment, and the dust gives the moisture something to cling to. Since it sets upon the surface longer, it may cause elements in the dust to oxidize. If those elements happen to be iron (as an example), then you've created a condition that will cause the iron to oxidize, and when iron oxidizes it enlarges, so there is a possibility of the iron burrowing into the paint surface. This could cause the paint to have all sorts of micro "pot marks", and it would consequently look hideous.

Then!- if even one caustic or acidic contaminant were to land upon the paint, (and is left to fester), it would inevitably dissolve enough paint to cause severe etching. If this happens to a clear coat, and the coating is compromised (the goop eats through the clear), the base coat would be exposed. There's a repaint in your future, no doubt, which generally requires shooting the entire panel.

Every time we expose unprotected paint to oxygenated air, the oxidation process begins. Compound or polish the paint and then wash it, and we've exposed the paint to air, and oxidation begins. Strip the surface with alcohol or solvent, same thing. In that sense, a final polish prior to waxing would technically prepare the surface for the wax, but then... does the polish or wax (or ingredients in them) actually strip the paint, effectively causing the same drying effect that oxidation does? If they do, then we are still altering the top coat, but we're immediately covering it up.

Think of it like this: In the winter, you visit your tiny little snow-covered cabin, high in the mountains. It's generally COLD there, so you build a fire in a wood burning stove to cozy the place up. But no matter what you do, your feet stay COLD. So, you build a wood table, and through the table you bore long holes (or tunnels) and place electric blanket heating elements through the holes, figuring that you'll be able to heat the wood, rest 'yer frozen feet upon the table, and keep the toes nice and toasty. You want to protect the top of the table from stinky feet and coffee cup rings, so you place a piece of glass atop the table. Okay- you didn't realize that occasionally those electric heating elements short out, and POOF!- the table gets some pretty good scorch marks and will forever stink like smoke, but it survived intact.

In this scenario, the wood represents your car's paint, and the glass represents a wax layer which protects the paint. Suppose the wax happens to be some "special blend" your neighbor conjured up, and he used Ma's candles mixed in with Pa's leftover turpentine to keep the wax liquified. As you apply the wax, what is the turpentine doing to the paint?!

All this nonsense doesn't even account for what HEAT does to a paint job. How in the world are we supposed to protect the paint from heat created by the environment (direct sun, ambient air, and engine heat)? Egads! Think I'll buy an aluminum bodied car, strip the paint, let it oxidize, and call it good.

Great question! :thumbup:
 
This discussion sort of goes along with a question posted on the British detailing forum asking why products with fillers are bad. The OP in that thread basically suggested that, if you use a product or products that very effectively fill in fine swirls rather than removing them (and thereby removing at least some paint) and the paint looks truly outstanding as a result, why does everyone seem to think that's a bad thing? After all, he suggested, isn't the end result what really matters? And if you can achieve that end result without actually removing any paint but just fill in instead, it's certainly a lot safer on the paint in the long run.

Sure, those comments open up a bunch of discussions as to whether or you actually can achieve the same look by filling rather than correcting, but that sort of misses the point.

Whenever I'm faced with the question about how often one can buff a car before going through the clear - a question that is often followed with "I do it every three months or so" - I always ask why on earth the person has to do so that often??

I certainly agree with Kevin that regular maintenance is the way to go, and that regular maintenance is the washing and drying process being done in such a way as to prevent, or at least strongly reduce, the creation of swirls, scratches, etc in the first place.

But the age old question about how many buffing cycles does it take to get to the bottom of the clear coat is like the old Tootsie-Pop commercial asking how many licks it took to get to the tootsie-roll center. One can only surmise that since the wise old owl determined that number to be "3", he probably also removes fine towel marks with a rotary buffer, wool pad and M105. At 3000 rpm.

But if you're using M205 or something similarly light in cut, on a soft pad and a D/A as part of an annual regimen while your neighbor does nothing to his car, then 7 years or so down the line your car will look outstanding and his will be dull and dingy. I say this because my daily driver is 7 years old and has gone through this sort of treatment (albeit with M80 prior to the introduction of M205) and it looks far better than most cars I see that are half that age (the few rock chips on the front end notwithstanding).
 

Attachments

  • skyline3.jpg
    skyline3.jpg
    27.5 KB · Views: 74
Thanks for all the great replies.

Like Mike Stoops, I was using M80 before M205 (and still use it on occasion).

Kevin's post was really useful, especially finding out why I have stank feet! LOL
 
thanks kevin for that explanation and analogy. i also have a 10 year old car and haven't quite gotten it to 100% but it looks much better than cars half its age but haven't been taken care of as well. i've finally realized that the less i touch it with towels and such the fewer scratches i induce into the paint. thanks to the folks on this forum.
 

Attachments

  • 101-0160_img_512.jpg
    101-0160_img_512.jpg
    21.3 KB · Views: 121
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top