Anyone have the thread that explains why the 3401 spins at 4800 MAX OPM's, not 9600?

S

socarecon

New member
Most of you who have read my posts know I do mainly reconditioning / repair and my down line is detailing. So there lies my expertise. Before anyone makes that big jump to doing recon "only" consider this - it's a very very nasty market out there! Reconers will sell their soul to take away your auto dealership account. Here in SO CA, LA to Mexican boarder- the whoresalers (not a misprint) reconers are doing pdr for as little as $35.00 per car, what a joke! And painting is even worse $50.00 to paint whatever is needed on the car- 5 hours on a car for $50.00 and $15.00 in product, so i made $35.00 in 5 hours not even minum wage. It's not as bad in Ventura County and going north but is getting there. I think the days of per item is gone for ever. I still get per item only, my work backs it up.



If you are thinking of buying into a franchise/dealership and so called known name, the auto dealerships don't care if you are ding king, mars, dent wizard or joe blow recon! It all now comes down to how much $$$ the dealership can save then quality of work. The ding kings and whoever else started the whore wars in the recon biz in SO CA and anywhere else in the USA. It really makes me sick, Did the owners forget what it was like to really get their greedy hands dirty? - you bet.



My point is, there is nothing wrong doing recon at dealerships; it is better as add on to a detail service and do it on the retail level. If you buy a franchise/dealership be carefull as they cannot guarantee any work for you or other reconers from taking over your accounts. Learning the trade will make you go bankrupt, if you donot have 1 year of your expences in the bank. I have been trying to get accounts in Simi - my hometown for 3 years with no luck, i guess there is some loyalty there. My best suggestions, take training, practice forever until you feell you work is top notch, use your new trade on the retail level and make 3 times that you would at the dealers . . . but look before you leap!
 
I believe I know the thread that you are having a debate and I can provide you an answer for the thread if you don't mind giving credit.



Random Orbital DA's do not have a fixed rate of OPM's vs. RPM. Take any of the newer style DA's and run them at speed six (which is usually rated between 6000-6800 OPM). Press down VERY hard on the paint, to the point the pad stalls or almost stalls. If you press down just right you can get the pad to spin at a greatly slowed rate, like 1 time per minute. While the orbits will stall slightly, most of the slack/friction is taken up in the bearing of the machine. You have created a rate of 6800 (roughly) per rotation.

Forced Rotation DA's have a fixed rate. The orbit is actually driven by the rotation, so that if the rotation stalls, so does the OPM, and vice a versa. In regards to the Flex, you are correct. The Flex orbits ten times per rotation and this never changes. This is easy to verify, spin the pad 1 time around and count the orbits, it is always ten.

This means that at maximum speed the Flex is limited to 4800 OPM. (480 RPM x 10 orbits per rotation). Flex uses a 'unique' way of rating the machine, but if we are comparing apples to apples then random orbital DA's produce more OPMs and are less likely to have the OPM rate stall (since the motor is not responsible spinning the big pad).

Now with most polishing systems and with foam pads, the Flex is going to produce more cutting power because it is a forced system and correction is dependent on how fast the foam is moving across the paint. The combination of a forced, high speed rotation, and the orbital motion means you transfering more energy to the paint.

Things get flipped around a little bit when you use something like a Surbuf or Meguiar's DA microfiber system. The texure (little fingers or the microfiber tuft) of the pad makes it more efficent with the orbital motion than with a rotational motion.

When something is orbiting it is like moving your hand in tiny circles (wax on/wax off). This exposes ALL of the microfiber (or micro finger)'s sides to the paint. Since the abrasive grains in the polish attach to the microfiber, the increase in surface area (and the amount of abrasives working) means that most of polishing action is coming from the orbital motion instead of the spinning motion.

In fact too much spinning motion is a BAD thing (hence Meguiar's recommending a SLOWER speed for the DA system). This is because spinning the pad too fast will cause centrifugal force to pull the fibers outward and cause them to lay flat. Down you just have a standard sized pad vs. a pad that is using all of it's surface area (and far less abrasives are being used at a given time).

This is why many people are getting better results using random orbitals instead of forced rotation machines when using products like the Microfiber DA disks (or Surbuff's).

Hope this makes sense and clears up any confusion.
 
th0001 said:
I believe I know the thread that you are having a debate and I can provide you an answer for the thread if you don't mind giving credit.



Random Orbital DA's do not have a fixed rate of OPM's vs. RPM. Take any of the newer style DA's and run them at speed six (which is usually rated between 6000-6800 OPM). Press down VERY hard on the paint, to the point the pad stalls or almost stalls. If you press down just right you can get the pad to spin at a greatly slowed rate, like 1 time per minute. While the orbits will stall slightly, most of the slack/friction is taken up in the bearing of the machine. You have created a rate of 6800 (roughly) per rotation.

Forced Rotation DA's have a fixed rate. The orbit is actually driven by the rotation, so that if the rotation stalls, so does the OPM, and vice a versa. In regards to the Flex, you are correct. The Flex orbits ten times per rotation and this never changes. This is easy to verify, spin the pad 1 time around and count the orbits, it is always ten.

This means that at maximum speed the Flex is limited to 4800 OPM. (480 RPM x 10 orbits per rotation). Flex uses a 'unique' way of rating the machine, but if we are comparing apples to apples then random orbital DA's produce more OPMs and are less likely to have the OPM rate stall (since the motor is not responsible spinning the big pad).

Now with most polishing systems and with foam pads, the Flex is going to produce more cutting power because it is a forced system and correction is dependent on how fast the foam is moving across the paint. The combination of a forced, high speed rotation, and the orbital motion means you transfering more energy to the paint.

Things get flipped around a little bit when you use something like a Surbuf or Meguiar's DA microfiber system. The texure (little fingers or the microfiber tuft) of the pad makes it more efficent with the orbital motion than with a rotational motion.

When something is orbiting it is like moving your hand in tiny circles (wax on/wax off). This exposes ALL of the microfiber (or micro finger)'s sides to the paint. Since the abrasive grains in the polish attach to the microfiber, the increase in surface area (and the amount of abrasives working) means that most of polishing action is coming from the orbital motion instead of the spinning motion.

In fact too much spinning motion is a BAD thing (hence Meguiar's recommending a SLOWER speed for the DA system). This is because spinning the pad too fast will cause centrifugal force to pull the fibers outward and cause them to lay flat. Down you just have a standard sized pad vs. a pad that is using all of it's surface area (and far less abrasives are being used at a given time).

This is why many people are getting better results using random orbitals instead of forced rotation machines when using products like the Microfiber DA disks (or Surbuff's).

Hope this makes sense and clears up any confusion.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Todd! I did give you credit! :cornut:
 
Todd or Kevin,

I use the Griot's garage DA with the MF system. According to Griot's, at speed 4, the pad spins at 5080 OPM's and 4220 OPM's at speed 3. If I used speed 3 1/2, that would put me at 4650 OPM's. Considering the recommended OPM is 4800, would it be better to use speed 3 1/2 or 4 with D300 and the MF cutting disc?
 
Wow, that was very informative, though, I feel like I get better results using my FLEX 3401 with surbuff then I do with my Griots 6in? it seems to get the job done quicker then then the DA
 
Tru_Shine said:
Wow, that was very informative, though, I feel like I get better results using my FLEX 3401 with surbuff then I do with my Griots 6in? it seems to get the job done quicker then then the DA
Click to expand...

That's why detailing is so much fun (IMO). Theory only goes so far, but what matters is the results the individual gets. Technically the DA should have the potential to out perform a forced rotation DA, but it doesn't always pan out that way. It could be the paint your working on, you skill level with a Flex vs. DA, the way the moons are lined up.... But it doesn't matter. Judging by the work you produce (which is phenomenal) you have a great system.
 
th0001 said:
That's why detailing is so much fun (IMO). Theory only goes so far, but what matters is the results the individual gets. Technically the DA should have the potential to out perform a forced rotation DA, but it doesn't always pan out that way. It could be the paint your working on, you skill level with a Flex vs. DA, the way the moons are lined up.... But it doesn't matter. Judging by the work you produce (which is phenomenal) you have a great system.
Click to expand...
With a random orbital DA, do you want to use a lower speed(4800 OPM)? Or, is speed 6 fine with surbuf pads? This would be generally speaking...
 
07 z-oh-6 said:
Todd or Kevin,

I use the Griot's garage DA with the MF system. According to Griot's, at speed 4, the pad spins at 5080 OPM's and 4220 OPM's at speed 3. If I used speed 3 1/2, that would put me at 4650 OPM's. Considering the recommended OPM is 4800, would it be better to use speed 3 1/2 or 4 with D300 and the MF cutting disc?
Click to expand...

Try to dial it as close to 4800 opm as possible - maybe 3 3/4 on the Griot's tool? We don't want you overthinking this too much, or stressing over the speeds either, so if you aren't dead on 4800 opm don't sweat it. As with anything in this game, plenty of variables will dictate the outcome. Some paints may actually prefer a slightly slower speed than 4800 opm (so 3 1/2 on the Griot's tool) or slightly higher speeds (so 4 on the Griot's). Experiment a bit, but get out there and polish some paint!!

Oh, and Todd, as for your description of forced rotation vs DA and how they impact things, how they move the pads, etc - great stuff!! (as always :) )
 
th0001 said:
I believe I know the thread that you are having a debate and I can provide you an answer for the thread if you don't mind giving credit.



Random Orbital DA's do not have a fixed rate of OPM's vs. RPM. Take any of the newer style DA's and run them at speed six (which is usually rated between 6000-6800 OPM). Press down VERY hard on the paint, to the point the pad stalls or almost stalls. If you press down just right you can get the pad to spin at a greatly slowed rate, like 1 time per minute. While the orbits will stall slightly, most of the slack/friction is taken up in the bearing of the machine. You have created a rate of 6800 (roughly) per rotation.

Forced Rotation DA's have a fixed rate. The orbit is actually driven by the rotation, so that if the rotation stalls, so does the OPM, and vice a versa. In regards to the Flex, you are correct. The Flex orbits ten times per rotation and this never changes. This is easy to verify, spin the pad 1 time around and count the orbits, it is always ten.

This means that at maximum speed the Flex is limited to 4800 OPM. (480 RPM x 10 orbits per rotation). Flex uses a 'unique' way of rating the machine, but if we are comparing apples to apples then random orbital DA's produce more OPMs and are less likely to have the OPM rate stall (since the motor is not responsible spinning the big pad).

Now with most polishing systems and with foam pads, the Flex is going to produce more cutting power because it is a forced system and correction is dependent on how fast the foam is moving across the paint. The combination of a forced, high speed rotation, and the orbital motion means you transfering more energy to the paint.

Things get flipped around a little bit when you use something like a Surbuf or Meguiar's DA microfiber system. The texure (little fingers or the microfiber tuft) of the pad makes it more efficent with the orbital motion than with a rotational motion.

When something is orbiting it is like moving your hand in tiny circles (wax on/wax off). This exposes ALL of the microfiber (or micro finger)'s sides to the paint. Since the abrasive grains in the polish attach to the microfiber, the increase in surface area (and the amount of abrasives working) means that most of polishing action is coming from the orbital motion instead of the spinning motion.

In fact too much spinning motion is a BAD thing (hence Meguiar's recommending a SLOWER speed for the DA system). This is because spinning the pad too fast will cause centrifugal force to pull the fibers outward and cause them to lay flat. Down you just have a standard sized pad vs. a pad that is using all of it's surface area (and far less abrasives are being used at a given time).

This is why many people are getting better results using random orbitals instead of forced rotation machines when using products like the Microfiber DA disks (or Surbuff's).

Hope this makes sense and clears up any confusion.
Click to expand...

I can confirm that IME a GG polisher will cut quicker then my festool when using the MF pad/D300.

On the last few cars I have polished, I have used the festool in r/o mode at speed 4-5 and forced orbit at speed 1. Why speed 1 in f/o mode? Speed 1 has plenty of rotational speed, maybe too much. IMO since the festool has a smaller throw or movement then the GG, G110v2 or XPPC it just wont get the job done fast enough w/ the MF pad.

It seems to me that the smaller throw is also the limiting factor when using the festool in r/o mode at speed 4.5. Again it just does not cut as fast as the GG at speed 4.5.
 
gmblack3 said:
I can confirm that IME a GG polisher will cut quicker then my festool when using the MF pad/D300.

On the last few cars I have polished, I have used the festool in r/o mode at speed 4-5 and forced orbit at speed 1. Why speed 1 in f/o mode? Speed 1 has plenty of rotational speed, maybe too much. IMO since the festool has a smaller throw or movement then the GG, G110v2 or XPPC it just wont get the job done fast enough w/ the MF pad.

It seems to me that the smaller throw is also the limiting factor when using the festool in r/o mode at speed 4.5. Again it just does not cut as fast as the GG at speed 4.5.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Bryan.

The GG is truly an awesome DA. Just to clarify, you use the GG DA at speed 4.5 with the DA MF system? That puts the OPM at 5520.
 
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