Professional Hand Detailers...

Clean Dean

Clean Dean

Keep it clean !!!
I have been detailing professionally since 2001, and I have experienced some incredible cars that have made me drool, and I have also detailed some SUV's and mini vans that have looked and smelled bad enough to "make a billgoat puke" (thanks Rambo).

PAINT...MOST OLDER CARS both clearcoated and singlestage require extensive WORK !!! And I mean work with the rotary after claying to bring most finishes back to as close to factory new as possible. I have tendonitis in my left forearm to prove it !!!

Now, here is my question ??? How does a hand detailer achieve the same results as a detailer that utilizes a machine to correct paint imperfections !!! How about earning a respectible dollar !!! I am in very good condition physically for my age (34) and I could not dream of hand detailing a finish that is more than 5 years old !!! If I were to detail the black 1994 E320 I detailed this week by hand it would have taken me 4X as long and I do not believe I would have achieved the same results.

I am not looking to blast hand detailers, but I cannot understand why one would not use a machine that is in my opinion more efficient and effective than anything that is done by hand. So...

Hand detailers please explain !!!

Thanks !!!
 
Can't speak for any others, but plain fear was what kept me doing things by hand for a very long while. I was a pro with a grinder, jitterbug, d/a (not the PC kind, but the pnuematic), and a variety of pre and post delivery work. But i could never get my head around using a rotary buffer. My first time back in the mid 80's was so bad, that I swore off the things until I left the shop a few years later.

What used to work for me when working with my hands was to use the most aggressive stuff i could get my hands on to help speed up the process (usually a heavy cut paste compound), and progress down to the lighter stuff and then finsh off with Fill N Glaze (loved that stuff since it made everything look better). No way was I even close to matching the time it took to work with a rotary, but I found that I was actually more thourough, and did not burn anything. Admittedly, there were times when the rubbing was uneven. But our shop was not a production facility, and complete paint jobs ran anywhere from 1 to 2 weeks on average, Even work that was farmed to us by the local dealership knew we kept busy so they expected not to rush the work. So basically I had the luxury of time to make spot correction as needed. On those rare days when time was not on my side, I would tape off the panels while the pro got started buffing out the panels.

Of course times are a bit different now.

Now that I have had a chance to fiddle with a PC, and seeing what a professional can do with some of the stuff i have on hand, I've decided that I will suck it up, and start practicing with a rotary.

But first, I am going to exploit my newest toy:

classic-motoring_1791_137953
 
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Dean i did most of my work by hand for better than 15 years with National Award winners and many almost dead finishes, including a $500k gull wing mercedes...yes it's hard , hard work and you have to work in very small sections at a time(inches). You also need a variety of applicator cloths for each stage of the compound/polishing ....there were also no pc's back then or clay bars...also remember that back then most cars had no clearcoat so you were perfecting paint...careful would be an understatement too...too strong a product or applicator and primer here we come..:eek
I think that all the modern tools help make the job much easier, the pc, foam pads, clay, specialized wash mitts, and mf, but we had to make cars look and feel near perfect long before them. :)
 
I had a rotary before I even started detailing cars... lol...

So, I've never hand compounded a vehicle before. Now, I did hand polish my truck before and it was a PITA. I have no clue how people can do work by hand and get it done in time. People will post how long it takes them to polish by hand and I'm normally thinking, "It would take me that long with a rotary and RO to get the results I want. What are they doing or what kind of results do they get?"
 
Interstingly, I found that working with single stage paints were way easier than the 2 or 3 stage paints. I did my first full fledged job on my own car after i had abused her over the course of less than a year of ownership. It wasn't concours by any step, but it got the respect of almost everyone who ever saw it. I even got a chance to work on a car that belonged to one my father's most devout customers at the time. Guy had a GS and a GNX. The GS came in almost every 2 years for touch up work and a full clean up (I didn't hear the term detailing until many years later; I'm a knuckle dragger sort of guy that way). It took me a total of 7 hours to prepsol, compound by hand, wash, glaze, vacuum interior clean, and amorall. The only thing i did not touch was the engine, since it was already cleaned up and dressed.
 
Intel486 said:
I had a rotary before I even started detailing cars... lol...

So, I've never hand compounded a vehicle before. Now, I did hand polish my truck before and it was a PITA. I have no clue how people can do work by hand and get it done in time. People will post how long it takes them to polish by hand and I'm normally thinking, "It would take me that long with a rotary and RO to get the results I want. What are they doing or what kind of results do they get?"
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Hard to say what results are since everyones experience, application, and situation is different.

You've probably come up against cars that had panels in varying states of disrepair. However, as time goes on, you get a feel for what you can do to each panel to help get them as even in apearance as possible. So, maybe the hood needs painting, but the rest of the car justs needs a rotary. Suffice to say you would not paint over the whole car; you just paint the hood. Same thing with Hand rubbing to an extent; use what is needed to make the improvement for that particular section.

Also take into consideration that there are a lot of folks out there that just simply never had access to such powerful tools as rotaries, so they learned how to do the work with their hands. And as they grow with the skill, the learned some ins and outs to help them be more efficient.

Hope that helps.
 
Try to imagine all of the detailing customers out there who only want to have their vehicles cleaned, polished and waxed by hand. Now try to imagine yourself as the only detailing business owner in your area who offers to clean, polish and wax only by hand.

Owning and operating a successful detailing business is all about marketing and filling the needs of your customers. It has very little to do with whether or not you use a rotary machine buffer.

When I established Mirror Finish Detailing in 1986 I had no idea the business would become a leader in the field of Professional Automobile and Boat Detailing. Located in Southern New Jersey, the company's mission is to specialize in protecting and enhancing the appearance of Automobiles, Trucks, Antique & Classic Cars, and Boats. All work is done at the client's location and all polishing and waxing is done only by hand.

Think about it: Isn't it much more efficient and effective, from a business standpoint, to have an entire group of up-scale vehicle owners all to yourself with almost no competition?

It's not about rotary machine buffers. It's strictly business.
 
you may be able to get a better of answers from Autopia there are a couple of hand detailers over there.
 
mirrorfinishman

Think about it: Isn't it much more efficient and effective, from a business standpoint, to have an entire group of up-scale vehicle owners all to yourself with almost no competition?
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Excellent answer !!! I would gather that you must charge about 3 times as much as a detailer that works with a machine, because it must take that much longer to detail a vehicle or a boat. I have never seen your work firsthand, but if you have been business since 1986, I would bet you are very good detailer.

However, I do have another question for you ? What techniques do you use when a customer comes to you with a very neglected exterior that has some scratches that will require a considerable amount of cutting to take out. Wouldn't be more efficient (in most cases) to compound these scratches with a rotary? What is your technique in these types of situations? Do you do a lot of wet sanding prior to hand compounding?

BTW... Where are you located in South Jersey? I have good friend in Paulsboro.
 
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Some of the best detailing by hand I have seen is Scottwax on Autopia - some truly incredible work. And even he has succumbed to the lure called PC in the last month or two....:)
 
Almost all of my customers usually get their vehicles detailed on a regular basis, similar to having scheduled oil changes. They realize that it’s just as important to take care of maintaining the appearance of their car, as it is to take care of the mechanical parts.

My business has always been focused only on retail customers, who either own or lease their vehicles. Almost all of my work is considered “Maintenance Detailing”. That’s because the vehicles are always detailed on a regular basis, usually three to four times a year.

My marketing efforts are focused on customers who have a need to get their cars detailed on a regular basis, not just when it becomes neglected. When someone comes to me with a 'neglected exterior that has some scratches that will require a considerable amount of cutting, compounding with a rotary and wet sanding' it is very easy for me to see that they are not the type of customer who needs my detailing service.

In summary, it's all about how you market and define the mission of your detailing business.

1- Who is the customer?
2- Where is the customer?
3- What does the customer value?
4- What are the realities of the customer?

Once your business mission is thoughtfully defined, you will then be able to begin to establish meaningful objectives and set realistic goals.
 
Re: mirrorfinishman

Clean Dean said:
Excellent answer !!! I would gather that you must charge about 3 times as much as a detailer that works with a machine, because it must take that much longer to detail a vehicle or a boat. I have never seen your work firsthand, but if you have been business since 1986, I would bet you are very good detailer.
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My prices for detailing are based on an hourly rate of $50 per hour. I charge $225 for an average size car that takes about four hours to complete.
 
Dang dude...you don't have to be such an a$$hat about it. Your opinion is not that of everyone else's, no matter how bad you may want to believe that.
 
I see the story on both sides. For one to charge $50 is rediculous. Are you paying for the knowledge of the rotary work or simply because it is by hand? That's an easy one. I am a big fan of saying that you WILL NOT achieve the same results by hand as opposed to a PC and a rotary. Your wrong by saying that a rotary is not effiecient......IT'S ALL ABOUT EFFICIENCY using a rotary. You say that you charge $225 for about 4 hours of work. What all do you do in that 4 hours? Just paint, or paint and interior, engine, etc...For a hand job (haha) it seems as if it would take longer to do it as opposed to using machinery.

Do you think you can do the same quality work by hand as opposed to using a machine, especially when it comes to a 10 year old oxidized finish?

Granted, I think my friend BigRon got a little antsy, but he does have a point; Respect is earned on this forum, not spoon fed.


However, you seem to have found a niche' in your market, and aparantly the things you tell your customers is convincing enough to have been successful for so many years. I know you are a marketing buff, and I agree (especially after college and real world experience) that marketing is the key. I wish you luck in the future.
 
ok im sorry .. im heading to the gym right now .. also im in the middle of some personal problems right now & i let it get to me sorry guys
 
bigron62 said:
ok im sorry .. im heading to the gym right now .. also im in the middle of some personal problems right now & i let it get to me sorry guys
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And this is the reason I sat back and kept quiet.... I know you are a good guy and a good member and sometimes this detailing stuff gets blown out of proportion. No biggie. Have a good workout and I hope things work out too.
 
bigron62 said:
WHAT A JOKE ... when it comes to doing some real paintwork you run away because you are scared .. straight up .. yea i get nervous but i have to get the job done & I GET BETTER ALL THE TIME .. im not buying into your nonsense .. i feel sorry for these poor people you serve because you are not able to meet all thier needs & you think thats ok .. then you want to come on here & tell us how great you are .. sorry pal im not buying it. you call yourself a leader in this industry and you cant even use the most basic tools of the trade this is hilarious ..
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Bigron, although I agree with you, and it sounds a little wimpy on Frank's part. Having done this (detailing) for as long as Frank -- I do see the merits in Frank's methodology. Do the easy cars, do the easy work, filter out the crap -- if it won't come clean by hand waxing, send them elsewhere (i.e. work smarter not harder), and charge more than anyone else because if it cost's the most, it must be the best. However there comes a time when experience outweighs arrogance and we move past it. Many years ago there was a person out there who referred to himself as "The Dean of Detailing" his philosophy was to charge twice whatever anyone else was charging and he was quite successful at it. Even was hired by Harrah's to detail their collection of cars. When I saw the collection -- it looked like crap -- cars looked like someone was wiping them down with one of those monofillament plastic dusters sold at 99 cent stores. I also did work for GM on a corporate show level and came across a 60+yr old Corporate Director who called my work "less than adequate." He referred to "his guy" in Detroit who does the cars in the lobby of their headquarters (my comment was why am I here doing this if he is so good). So I made this special trip to GM's Detroit Headquarters just to see his work displayed -- only to find dirt in the wheel wells and swirls so deep on a Corvette that it looked like a UAW had done. Now in the eyes of the beholder, these looked great --that is what matters in the end!! It's not what we think that keeps them coming back -- it's what they think!!. Some just don't know any better and for those folks, bafflement with B-S is easy. I find that many people with disposable incomes many times will care less about the processes, and more about the line-o-bs that can be slung and the person slinging it. I watched a former owner up-sell a $35 wash and wax into a full blown $750 job (undercoating, rustproofing, pinstriping, even a "teflon" finish - LOL. So if Frank's target market is this clientele, more power to him, and I commend him for being successful at what he does. I also understand now why his classes are " not recommended for professional detailers ." I'm sure if he ever needs someone to train those intermediate detailers how to become professional ones, he will ask those of us here at DC who are.
 
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