Dininishing abrasives?

D

Dalton

New member
I have heard this term used alot on the board and was wondering if someone can explain the concept of diminishing abrasives and how they actually work.
 
Im not an expert on the term but my take is this: When you first apply the product the abrasives (grit) are somewhat large, as you work the products in, the combination of heat and friction cause the "grit" to dry and break apart into smaller particles until they are basically dust.

Thats my take and probably far from scientific, but I tried :dunno

Eric
 
Does that mean if you dont break them down enough by working them long enough then they could scratch because the particles are too big? Like using 150 sand paper as opposed to 200 grit?
 
Diminished Abracives is found in Meguiar' products. Hence the reason why many of their products up to #83 are named Cleaner/Polish in stead of compounds. The logic here is that the Diminishing Abrasives remove defects and disappear in the polishing process. I also believe the term is a trade mark of Meguiar's and exclusive to their line. This technology is also used in the Machine Compound Series product as well.

What is affords is in some ways a safety level. elortt is basically correct. The "gritty feel" will be very evident upon the beginning of the application. As the product is broken down the "gritty feel" is lessened to the point of a pure polish and now it is merely a liquid texture.

If you have any of the professional TAN bottle Meguiar's series, #83 for example. Pour some on your finger and rub hard. At first you will feel this grit , then after a short time of rubbing you will notice it is gone.

AS far as I know, other compounds, will keep their Abrassive level throught the application and it is the user who must decied when the product has been worked enough.
 
Hey,


Just to add to what has been already mentioned.

Meguiar's Diminishing Abrasives Technology is unique to various Meguiar's compounds/cleaners and polishes. These Diminishing Abrasives are microscopic in size and should not be able to be felt. Instead, the abrasives do their job by starting off larger in size (still microscopic in size) and break down to even a smaller size as the product is worked. This in turn creates a more uniform and polished surface.

The key to using these products is to know how long to buff but also when to stop buffing. If you buff too long, as in a dry buff, you may add marring back into the surface. Therefore, the product must be broken down enough, but removed before marring is created. This will come with practice and experience.

I mentioned this thread to Mike Phillips of Meguiar's. Hopefully, Mike will be able to chime in additional information.

Tim
 
Am I incorrect in assuming that PB SSR's as well as other swirl removers contain diminishing abbrasives as well?
 
SSR's do contain "abrasives that diminish" if diminishing abrasives is a trade mark thing :lol

Eric
 
elortt said:
SSR's do contain "abrasives that diminish" if diminishing abrasives is a trade mark thing :lol

Eric
Click to expand...


:lol a process can not be trade marked ... ....Abrasives that diminish are technically a process and the SSR's do have them:)
 
If you want to get technical, all abrasive polishes diminish the abrasives to some degree...Not just Meg's and PB's.
 
Whew....luckily I said: "As far as I know"!!

Companies may share a similar process, but that does not make it the same. :D


Tim
 
I don`t have the Knowlege to know but things I have observed suggest that maybe a lot of abrasives naturally break down anyway under use. An example, just 2 days ago I was buffing a `94 Ford Explorer ( a dark metalic Green) with DACP. On a section that was hazed up pretty good I decided to try what has worked well for me in the past. I mix 3M super Duty Rubbing Compound (abrasive level 10) half and half with Meg`s Deep Crystal Paint Cleaner. I worked the area with a yellow Lake Country pad at 5 on the PC. It cleared up so well that I did not even bother follow with DACP, I went directly to #9 and the polish was so good that #9 just barely made a difference. This is a lot of words to say that it seems almost impossible for it to have polished to the level it did if it did not break down. So is it possible that many abrasives break down anyway and the concept of diminishing abrasives is using for marketing a natural process?
 
I think the important thing to remember here is, while it makes sense that as abrasives are broken down they may diminish.....to what extent? I believe that Meguiar's is the only product that essentially turns to a polish as the abrasives literally "dissappear", for lack of a better term, as they are broken down completely and turn the product into a polish. I believe other products still retain their abrassive qualities without becoming this "polish" component.
Caution and practice must still be advised when using any abrassive product. There should not be a false sense of security. If #83 is not broken down correctly it can be difficult to remove or if it is worked in to long it may cause minor marring of the surface as with any other product of it's kind. Practice with any abrassive is advised before working on your final surface.

Steve is so correct, you cannot trade mark a process. However, Meguiar's has trade marked the term "Diminished Abrasives".

I use both #83 and the SSR series and they are both excellent products!

Mixing Products:
I am not a chemist, by any means nor do I play one on TV, however mixing products brings together different chemistries and that may not be a good thing. These products are derived with positive and negative charges released at the molecular level. What anyone should be aware of, is the delicate process of how these chemicals function. Any disruption or introduction of other ingredients may cause the products to act quite differently when mixed. I realize you are pleased with the results. Again, the use of caution is best.
 
TraderB said:
So is it possible that many abrasives break down anyway and the concept of diminishing abrasives is using for marketing a natural process?
Click to expand...

Most definitely not.

In this day and age, many companies offer compounds with abrasives that break down, but it wasn't alwya like that. Barry told me that the company his grandfather started in 1901 used diminishing abrasives from the very start. I take that to mean the Furniture Cleaner, used a type of diminishing abrasive to safely and gently clean the finishes used back then on furniture.

Meguiar's has always been about removing defects without scouring the finish in the process.

In the past, and even today, there are many companies that market fast cutting compounds where the abrasives are very sharp and very hard. These types of abrasives may cut fast, i.e. remove sanding marks quickly or level orange peel without first sanding, but they leave the finished scoured and filled with swirls and remove too much paint considering the alternatives.

Meguiar’s also embodies their diminishing abrasives in rich, lubricating, oil films. This tends to slow the cutting action down because it make the surface slippery, but it creates a more beautiful finish, which is for most people the goal of the polishing process.

Since coming to work for Meguiar's at the Corporate office, and having a chance to work with several of the chemists here, it has been interesting to learn about the science behind diminishing abrasives. There are many types of diminishing abrasives, different shapes, different sizes, different materials, etc. Some break down very quickly, while some break down more slowly. Some are very costly and come from remote areas in the world.

There is a special diminishing abrasive compound Meguiar's makes for use at the OEM level at what are called Polishing Decks, I used some for the first time on a Honda with a finish problem with an engineer from Honda, (by their request), it was interesting in that it reacted nothing like the products most of you here, as well as myself are used to using, i.e. the Heavy Cut cleaner, the Medium Cut Cleaner, the Fine Cut Cleaner, and the 80's series of compounds and cleaner/polishes.

In the last year, Meguiar's created two very, very very aggressive compounds, one with a diminishing abrasive, one with a mechanical abrasive that doesn't break down.

These to products can be found in Meguiar's Liquid Velocity Mold Release System

Velocity VM-80 Speed Cut Mold Compound
Velocity VM-81 Mold Compound

The Speed Cut Mold Compound is the one that uses the abrasive that doesn't break down. The reason Meguiar’s came out with this compound is because in the Fiberglas and Re-enforced Plastics industry, there a lot of people that finish sand with #400, #600 and #800 grit papers and it takes a very aggressive compound to remove scratches that are as deep as these low grit papers leave behind. Epoxy molds are also very hard compared to polyester molds and again, require a very aggressive compound in order to remove sanding scratches quickly and effectively.

Since the beginning of the coatings industry, both OEM and Re-Finishing, for decades and decades, the norm was aggressive compounds that used very hard and sharp abrasives to cut quickly. But since Meguiar’s inception, Meguiar's compounds, paint cleaners, cleaner/polishes and even cleaner/waxes have utilized Meguiar's pioneered, diminishing abrasive technology. A basic compound is pretty simple to make and fairly cheap to make, were talking sand in a bottle.

When you look back over the last 100 years, it has only been in the recent past that other companies in the industry began to follow Meguiar’s lead and put the R&D into creating compounds that like Meguiar’s compounds, paint cleaners and cleaner/polishes, use abrasives that break down while they’re being used.

So Meguiar's diminishing abrasives technology isn't about marketing for the sake of marketing, it's about working smarter and working forward in the paint polishing process, not backwards. It’s also about educating the craftsmen on the professional side of our hobby.

When I started out as a Field Rep. and Trainer for Meguiar’s back in 1988, primarily calling on body shops, dealerships and detail shops, my job was to educate people that wet-sand, cut and buff for a living, how to do it with the Meguiar’s system and get drastically better results.

Most of this was simply showing people how our Unigrit Finishing Papers worked compared to the competition, how our compounds were made using diminishing abrasives and how our foam pads produced a more swirl free finish compared to wool pads.

Remember, Meguiar’s came out with the foam pad back in 1965! , that's the year Gilligan's Island debuted, the Beach Boy's, "Help me Rhonda" hit the charts and Ford introduced the Mustang! (Well technically, the Mustang came out in 1964 1/2)

It wasn’t till the early 1990’s that 3M finally followed Meguiar’s success and came out with their version of the foam pad, as well as all the companies you see today that sell foam pads.

For what it's worth....

Mike
 
yes I agree with Mike, there are some companies that still do not use diminishing abrasives and most smart companies will. The cost of these abrasives is much higher, but as Mike said the results can speak for themselves as many of you have seen with our SSR line. The key as Mike said is to not damage the finish as you are removing swirls, sanding marks and scratches, which make it easier for more people and even beginners to get better results.
 
Somewhere in my files I have a catalog from a company that offers an old-fashioned compound with Carnuaba wax in it!

This is their idea of a One-Step!

I'm sorry... but I can't even imagine using a non-diminishing abrasive compound on a finish, let alone one that contains a wax to supposedly be a one step... :dunno

Mike
 
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